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The author at one point mentions how uniforms break down personhood by forcing them to present themselves as something that they aren't. How does this fit in w

The author at one point mentions how uniforms break down personhood by forcing them to present themselves as something that they aren't. How does this fit in with a High School mandating uniforms? Surely this encourages personhood in some way. In my experience, uniforms were very helpful in getting along with other people at my school.

BinRoo 12y ago
Personhood, as the author describes it, is just the barebone game society plays, and all other networks (school, work, friendship, relationship, etc) supersede it. So, uniforms in school can certainly provide the benefits of personhood.
azernik 12y ago
Not that it forces them to present themselves as something they aren't, but that it is "a signal that the wearer is enacting a role in which his agency is outsourced and his individuality is suppressed". That is, when a soldier wears a uniform, they are signalling that they are not the ones making decisions about their own actions, but rather the organization they represent is making those decisions. School uniforms don't indicate nearly the same level of subordination to a command structure.
- thesteamboat 12y ago
  Continuing this thought, the uniform is a marker distinguishing those in uniform from those not in uniform. People working in uniform for [insert generic company here] retain their personhood with respect to each other, but not to the public at large. (See http://www.viruscomix.com/page471.html http://www.viruscomix.com/page471.html) School uniforms don't really deal with this dynamic because they're only relevant for interactions internal to the school rather than interactions between the school and the outside world.
  - carlob 12y ago
    > School uniforms don't really deal with this dynamic because they're only relevant for interactions internal to the school rather than interactions between the school and the outside world. Well they also have an effect on the interaction with the outside world: remember that Trainspotting scene when Renton wakes up to find out that the girl he picked up is a schoolgirl?
  - jlees 12y ago
    They cross the interface between school and the outside world by causing a certain set of behaviours and/or expectations when in transition between states. A schoolchild walking home in uniform may be better behaved than otherwise, because he or she is representing the school, whether that's intentionally known and communicated or not. My school had explicit rules about how we should behave when in uniform outside of school, and we lost some agency because of that. Although I have to say it also felt empowering, to some extent, that we were kind of ambassadors for the school. We would definitely show off sometimes. Similarly, sweet shops near another school I attended had signs saying 'no more than 3 children at once' or something similar. The uniform part was implied but I think a parent taking in four kids on a weekend day would have a different reaction from the shopkeeper than four uniformed children at 3:30pm. Similarly, a group of teenagers in uniform may be less threatening on the street than one out of uniform, especially as fashions change. A certain school's uniform communicates a level of wealth or manners (or lack thereof) and therefore sets expectations for behaviour. A child alone in the library working in uniform may be far less likely to be approached by concerned staff than one in mufti - at least this was the case when I frequently stayed at the library outside of school hours.

BinRoo 12y ago

Personhood, as the author describes it, is just the barebone game society plays, and all other networks (school, work, friendship, relationship, etc) supersede it. So, uniforms in school can certainly provide the benefits of personhood.

azernik 12y ago

Not that it forces them to present themselves as something they aren't, but that it is "a signal that the wearer is enacting a role in which his agency is outsourced and his individuality is suppressed". That is, when a soldier wears a uniform, they are signalling that they are not the ones making decisions about their own actions, but rather the organization they represent is making those decisions. School uniforms don't indicate nearly the same level of subordination to a command structure.

thesteamboat 12y ago
Continuing this thought, the uniform is a marker distinguishing those in uniform from those not in uniform. People working in uniform for [insert generic company here] retain their personhood with respect to each other, but not to the public at large. (See http://www.viruscomix.com/page471.html http://www.viruscomix.com/page471.html) School uniforms don't really deal with this dynamic because they're only relevant for interactions internal to the school rather than interactions between the school and the outside world.
- carlob 12y ago
  > School uniforms don't really deal with this dynamic because they're only relevant for interactions internal to the school rather than interactions between the school and the outside world. Well they also have an effect on the interaction with the outside world: remember that Trainspotting scene when Renton wakes up to find out that the girl he picked up is a schoolgirl?
- jlees 12y ago
  They cross the interface between school and the outside world by causing a certain set of behaviours and/or expectations when in transition between states. A schoolchild walking home in uniform may be better behaved than otherwise, because he or she is representing the school, whether that's intentionally known and communicated or not. My school had explicit rules about how we should behave when in uniform outside of school, and we lost some agency because of that. Although I have to say it also felt empowering, to some extent, that we were kind of ambassadors for the school. We would definitely show off sometimes. Similarly, sweet shops near another school I attended had signs saying 'no more than 3 children at once' or something similar. The uniform part was implied but I think a parent taking in four kids on a weekend day would have a different reaction from the shopkeeper than four uniformed children at 3:30pm. Similarly, a group of teenagers in uniform may be less threatening on the street than one out of uniform, especially as fashions change. A certain school's uniform communicates a level of wealth or manners (or lack thereof) and therefore sets expectations for behaviour. A child alone in the library working in uniform may be far less likely to be approached by concerned staff than one in mufti - at least this was the case when I frequently stayed at the library outside of school hours.