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Perhaps computer science graduates in the UK don't make the same kind of money that they do in the Bay Area, but do you really think those salaries are actually

Perhaps computer science graduates in the UK don't make the same kind of money that they do in the Bay Area, but do you really think those salaries are actually justified in any real sense? Should a junior developer fresh out of his computer science degree really be earning more than, say, a trainee doctor?

Nursie 12y ago
The bay area is a weird phenomenon, and I wouldn't want it replicated everywhere. However. I don't believe that software folks in the UK are remunerated in line with their skills and value, nor the money they bring in Just what they have been lead to believe they are worth by business and by their own risk-averse, non entrepreneurial nature. This is pretty much the definition of market value I guess!
- bshimmin 12y ago
  I think people who work in technology in the UK - in London at least - are remunerated similarly as well as, if not better than, the other more traditional professions, by which I mean lawyers, doctors, and teachers (the latter were always traditionally paid worse, but are paid a bit better now). Outside of London, it's probably a different story, where I think tech workers probably do worse on the whole. If you work in tech and you feel hardly done by, and you're of the entrepreneurial sort, you can quite easily become a contractor and make an awful lot of money. I don't think that's so easily done in other professions. There will always be outliers who make staggering amounts of money - a partner at a magic circle law firm, or a very high level accountant at one of the big four, might command seven figures rather than six; but we have those in tech too: CTOs.
  - Nursie 12y ago
    I don't really think that's true, at least outside the financial sector. That said I agree that contracting is the way to go, which is why I have been a contractor ever since I returned from Australia. --edit-- apart from the teachers of course. They get paid very little. I believe this is true pretty much everywhere though?
    - justincormack 12y ago
      The contracting market is kind of odd though - people somehow find the money to pay people two to four times as much as their regular employees, on long time contracts, partly because they are not paying enough to get good people as employees. Its broken HR.
      - Nursie 12y ago
        Yup. It is weird. One of the factors is that you have no hidden costs (NI, pensions etc) with a contractor. Another is that you can get rid of them whenever you like, in theory. A third one I've heard is that you can keep your company/department's official headcount low this way, which is sometimes good for accounting purposes for some reason, while you actually get to have more people. But yeah, it is weird.
        bshimmin 12y ago
        You also don't have to pay for their holidays, and often not for their equipment (IR35 even suggests that contractors should use their own computers, in fact), for their attendance at company events, expenses (in some cases), etc. In theory a contractor should be able to hit the ground running with no training required, too. Obviously in the harsh bitterness of reality that's often not the case...
        justincormack 12y ago
        None of those factors make up the difference, which is usually around a factor of 3. Computers are cheap, you need to pay travel expenses if you send them anywhere, NI is not a huge cost... and in the UK laying people off is not actually that hard. I actually think it is an accidental steady state, because there is such a huge gap, the good people shift to freelance fast, and lots of not so good people do, and the only people left in the low paying permanent jobs are disgruntled and underpaid.
        bshimmin 12y ago

Nursie 12y ago

The bay area is a weird phenomenon, and I wouldn't want it replicated everywhere. However. I don't believe that software folks in the UK are remunerated in line with their skills and value, nor the money they bring in Just what they have been lead to believe they are worth by business and by their own risk-averse, non entrepreneurial nature. This is pretty much the definition of market value I guess!

bshimmin 12y ago
I think people who work in technology in the UK - in London at least - are remunerated similarly as well as, if not better than, the other more traditional professions, by which I mean lawyers, doctors, and teachers (the latter were always traditionally paid worse, but are paid a bit better now). Outside of London, it's probably a different story, where I think tech workers probably do worse on the whole. If you work in tech and you feel hardly done by, and you're of the entrepreneurial sort, you can quite easily become a contractor and make an awful lot of money. I don't think that's so easily done in other professions. There will always be outliers who make staggering amounts of money - a partner at a magic circle law firm, or a very high level accountant at one of the big four, might command seven figures rather than six; but we have those in tech too: CTOs.
- Nursie 12y ago
  I don't really think that's true, at least outside the financial sector. That said I agree that contracting is the way to go, which is why I have been a contractor ever since I returned from Australia. --edit-- apart from the teachers of course. They get paid very little. I believe this is true pretty much everywhere though?
  - justincormack 12y ago
    The contracting market is kind of odd though - people somehow find the money to pay people two to four times as much as their regular employees, on long time contracts, partly because they are not paying enough to get good people as employees. Its broken HR.
    - Nursie 12y ago
      Yup. It is weird. One of the factors is that you have no hidden costs (NI, pensions etc) with a contractor. Another is that you can get rid of them whenever you like, in theory. A third one I've heard is that you can keep your company/department's official headcount low this way, which is sometimes good for accounting purposes for some reason, while you actually get to have more people. But yeah, it is weird.
      - bshimmin 12y ago
        You also don't have to pay for their holidays, and often not for their equipment (IR35 even suggests that contractors should use their own computers, in fact), for their attendance at company events, expenses (in some cases), etc. In theory a contractor should be able to hit the ground running with no training required, too. Obviously in the harsh bitterness of reality that's often not the case...
        justincormack 12y ago
        None of those factors make up the difference, which is usually around a factor of 3. Computers are cheap, you need to pay travel expenses if you send them anywhere, NI is not a huge cost... and in the UK laying people off is not actually that hard. I actually think it is an accidental steady state, because there is such a huge gap, the good people shift to freelance fast, and lots of not so good people do, and the only people left in the low paying permanent jobs are disgruntled and underpaid.
        bshimmin 12y ago