5 ms·

Agree with this, I work in tech in London for a company that has a NY and SF office, they pay CS grads (first or 2nd year out of school) between 90 and 110 thou

by rogy 12y ago

Agree with this, I work in tech in London for a company that has a NY and SF office, they pay CS grads (first or 2nd year out of school) between 90 and 110 thousand dollars. Exactly the same position in London gets me just under 30 thousand pounds (48k usd) the only way for me to earn anywhere near even the 90 range would be to move in to finance

justincormack 12y ago
Well they are taking the piss. Leave and go somewhere that pays market rate.
- Nursie 12y ago
  That is market rate in the UK. Tech people are not well valued here.
  - bshimmin 12y ago
    Perhaps computer science graduates in the UK don't make the same kind of money that they do in the Bay Area, but do you really think those salaries are actually justified in any real sense? Should a junior developer fresh out of his computer science degree really be earning more than, say, a trainee doctor?
    - Nursie 12y ago
      The bay area is a weird phenomenon, and I wouldn't want it replicated everywhere. However. I don't believe that software folks in the UK are remunerated in line with their skills and value, nor the money they bring in Just what they have been lead to believe they are worth by business and by their own risk-averse, non entrepreneurial nature. This is pretty much the definition of market value I guess!
      - bshimmin 12y ago
        I think people who work in technology in the UK - in London at least - are remunerated similarly as well as, if not better than, the other more traditional professions, by which I mean lawyers, doctors, and teachers (the latter were always traditionally paid worse, but are paid a bit better now). Outside of London, it's probably a different story, where I think tech workers probably do worse on the whole. If you work in tech and you feel hardly done by, and you're of the entrepreneurial sort, you can quite easily become a contractor and make an awful lot of money. I don't think that's so easily done in other professions. There will always be outliers who make staggering amounts of money - a partner at a magic circle law firm, or a very high level accountant at one of the big four, might command seven figures rather than six; but we have those in tech too: CTOs.
        Nursie 12y ago
        I don't really think that's true, at least outside the financial sector. That said I agree that contracting is the way to go, which is why I have been a contractor ever since I returned from Australia. --edit-- apart from the teachers of course. They get paid very little. I believe this is true pretty much everywhere though?
        justincormack 12y ago
        The contracting market is kind of odd though - people somehow find the money to pay people two to four times as much as their regular employees, on long time contracts, partly because they are not paying enough to get good people as employees. Its broken HR.
        Nursie 12y ago
        Yup. It is weird. One of the factors is that you have no hidden costs (NI, pensions etc) with a contractor. Another is that you can get rid of them whenever you like, in theory. A third one I've heard is that you can keep your company/department's official headcount low this way, which is sometimes good for accounting purposes for some reason, while you actually get to have more people. But yeah, it is weird.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    agreed I saw a job ad for an experienced ground worker that was paying a lot more than some development jobs. Btw ground worker is he politically correct term for a navvy - so a gang boss digging ditches earns more than a devloper FFS
    - DanBC 12y ago
      A navvy is less than a groundworker, and a ground worker is less than a gang boss. > A ganger, or site foreman, costs approx. £100 per day, a semiskilled labourer £90 and a general labourer £80. In the Southeast, these rates may be up to 50% higher. http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/project-tips/builders/groundworks#sthash.lHLXH7sA.dpuf http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/project-tips/builders/g... http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/ground-worker-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/ground-worker-salary-SRC... shows about £15 per hour.
      - walshemj 12y ago
        Not my understanding at all and I used to work for a top 5 consulting engineer. Ground workers are the people that prep the ground (ie paddy wi a shovel) a qualified chippy a or sparky is a different matter. Btw did you know that for tech supervisors in mining the going rate for a single shift at the weekend is £2k and that's counting towards a FS pension!
  - justincormack 12y ago
    Well it is very hard to hire anyone good at that rate in London. There is a rapid elevator as people go from inexperienced to more useful, so the first few years people should be getting good increases every year. I am aware that there are a whole lot of marginally profitable firms trying to hire at these low rates, and that people do take these jobs, so there is a sort of "going rate", and there are companies who hire employees at low rates while hiring freelancers at triple rates as if they were permanent staff. There are plenty of junior PHP+mysql developer jobs for example advertised in the 30-40k area, and that is with people paying 10k+ to a recruiter for the "service" - and thats a pretty low end skill with little value added.

by rogy 12y ago

justincormack 12y ago

Well they are taking the piss. Leave and go somewhere that pays market rate.

Nursie 12y ago
That is market rate in the UK. Tech people are not well valued here.
- bshimmin 12y ago
  Perhaps computer science graduates in the UK don't make the same kind of money that they do in the Bay Area, but do you really think those salaries are actually justified in any real sense? Should a junior developer fresh out of his computer science degree really be earning more than, say, a trainee doctor?
  - Nursie 12y ago
    The bay area is a weird phenomenon, and I wouldn't want it replicated everywhere. However. I don't believe that software folks in the UK are remunerated in line with their skills and value, nor the money they bring in Just what they have been lead to believe they are worth by business and by their own risk-averse, non entrepreneurial nature. This is pretty much the definition of market value I guess!
    - bshimmin 12y ago
      I think people who work in technology in the UK - in London at least - are remunerated similarly as well as, if not better than, the other more traditional professions, by which I mean lawyers, doctors, and teachers (the latter were always traditionally paid worse, but are paid a bit better now). Outside of London, it's probably a different story, where I think tech workers probably do worse on the whole. If you work in tech and you feel hardly done by, and you're of the entrepreneurial sort, you can quite easily become a contractor and make an awful lot of money. I don't think that's so easily done in other professions. There will always be outliers who make staggering amounts of money - a partner at a magic circle law firm, or a very high level accountant at one of the big four, might command seven figures rather than six; but we have those in tech too: CTOs.
      - Nursie 12y ago
        I don't really think that's true, at least outside the financial sector. That said I agree that contracting is the way to go, which is why I have been a contractor ever since I returned from Australia. --edit-- apart from the teachers of course. They get paid very little. I believe this is true pretty much everywhere though?
        justincormack 12y ago
        The contracting market is kind of odd though - people somehow find the money to pay people two to four times as much as their regular employees, on long time contracts, partly because they are not paying enough to get good people as employees. Its broken HR.
        Nursie 12y ago
        Yup. It is weird. One of the factors is that you have no hidden costs (NI, pensions etc) with a contractor. Another is that you can get rid of them whenever you like, in theory. A third one I've heard is that you can keep your company/department's official headcount low this way, which is sometimes good for accounting purposes for some reason, while you actually get to have more people. But yeah, it is weird.
- walshemj 12y ago
  agreed I saw a job ad for an experienced ground worker that was paying a lot more than some development jobs. Btw ground worker is he politically correct term for a navvy - so a gang boss digging ditches earns more than a devloper FFS
  - DanBC 12y ago
    A navvy is less than a groundworker, and a ground worker is less than a gang boss. > A ganger, or site foreman, costs approx. £100 per day, a semiskilled labourer £90 and a general labourer £80. In the Southeast, these rates may be up to 50% higher. http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/project-tips/builders/groundworks#sthash.lHLXH7sA.dpuf http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/project-tips/builders/g... http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/ground-worker-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm http://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/ground-worker-salary-SRC... shows about £15 per hour.
    - walshemj 12y ago
      Not my understanding at all and I used to work for a top 5 consulting engineer. Ground workers are the people that prep the ground (ie paddy wi a shovel) a qualified chippy a or sparky is a different matter. Btw did you know that for tech supervisors in mining the going rate for a single shift at the weekend is £2k and that's counting towards a FS pension!
- justincormack 12y ago
  Well it is very hard to hire anyone good at that rate in London. There is a rapid elevator as people go from inexperienced to more useful, so the first few years people should be getting good increases every year. I am aware that there are a whole lot of marginally profitable firms trying to hire at these low rates, and that people do take these jobs, so there is a sort of "going rate", and there are companies who hire employees at low rates while hiring freelancers at triple rates as if they were permanent staff. There are plenty of junior PHP+mysql developer jobs for example advertised in the 30-40k area, and that is with people paying 10k+ to a recruiter for the "service" - and thats a pretty low end skill with little value added.