6 ms·

Hopefully the elections next year will bring back the more sensible highly skilled migrant immigration policies from the past that will allow highly skilled for

Hopefully the elections next year will bring back the more sensible highly skilled migrant immigration policies from the past that will allow highly skilled foreigners to participate in and contribute to this boom. Current policy introduced by the coalition government, as I understand it [1], is that a highly skilled migrant in the UK from outside the EU would simply not be allowed to build a revenue generating side project, either by themselves or in a partnership. The best they can legally do is find somebody to take their IP and hire them into a new business - an unlikely prospect, and a risky one - and even then they'd be limited to 20 hours of work per week unless the new business goes through a complicated legal process to become a visa sponsor. And after 5/6 years the foreigner may be declined leave to remain and forced to return to their home country, regardless of what they may have built up in the mean time. [1] This is what my research shows. I'd love to learn that I'm wrong, being somebody who has to make a decision about whether to take this 5/6 year gamble while starting a family.

jlangenauer 12y ago
There is the Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) visa, though it's not at all straight-forward - you need £200k investment, or £50k under conditions that I'm not sure it's possible to actually meet. https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-entrepreneur/overview https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-entrepreneur/overview
- ryanjshaw 12y ago
  Right, just a 200k investment :) This belies a very specific view of how enterpreneurship works. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple... none of these companies would have met a similar requirement in their times. Furthermore, by the time most people have 200k to investment a business they're likely to have settled in a geographically locked private life.
  - berdario 12y ago
    It's not like in the US it would've been much easier for a foreigner: for an E2 Visa you're expected to have 100k-150k$
    - ryanjshaw 12y ago
      I'm not discussing the US? I'm expressing my hope that the UK returns to its more sensible pre-2010 highly skilled migrant policy.
      - berdario 12y ago
        Sure, I completely agree with the sentiment. I just pointed it out since you used 4 US companies as examples, and I thought you could be implying that it could be easier to start a company there for a foreigner.
  - hcho 12y ago
    So how do you suggest they tell someone is really an entrepreneur? Genuine question. £200k is not a very huge amount of money by London standards. Maybe fully loaded cost of 2 senior developers for a year, if you get creative making it stretch. Any threshold below that would effectively be a open doors situation.
k-mcgrady 12y ago
Personally I'm for making immigration easier but how necessary is it for businesses considering that they can hire from anywhere in EU with very few hurdles? Are there really many people outside the EU that are so skilled that an alternative can't be found within the EU?
- rtpg 12y ago
  well, hiring from silicon valley for one thing
  - k-mcgrady 12y ago
    But my point is that the hiring pool is already huge (the entire EU). Are there lots of people in SV who want to move to London and who have skills that nobody in the EU does?
    - ryanjshaw 12y ago
      I'm in South Africa. I work for a global company with offices in London. I have very specific knowledge that makes me a natural candidate for employment by the London office that nobody in the EU would have. But I have private life and certain freedoms here in South Africa, which I have to give up to work in the UK under the current visa scheme. I would have to terminate all my side projects that earn revenue, and only work on non-income generating projects - or perhaps become a couch potato. How does that benefit the UK, bearing in mind I can easily get the visa with these restrictions? All the UK is going to end up with, under this policy, is a majority of migrants with no dreams to do anything bigger than what their boss tells them to do.
      - k-mcgrady 12y ago
        Thanks. Like I said in the original comment I'm for opening up immigration. I just wonder how many people there are like you. Are there enough to convince government the spend the time and money to change the immigration laws.
tim333 12y ago
There are ways for non EU folks to come here settle here. I'm not up on the details as they keep changing but basically if you come here to do a degree/masters they tend to let you stay on and work after and if you stick 10 years you can apply for UK citizenship. There's some sort of earnings requirement like you have to be making over £30k or something like that and be paying tax. I'm not sure it matters if the earnings come from employment or your own business. (some bumph here http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-11-15/uk-immigration-minister-says-graduates-can-stay-in-uk http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-11-15/uk-immigration-min...). The norm seems to be to do a masters and then stay on with a job, then you could do a startup if you can get funding / customers to pay a suitable salary I think. I've got a couple of friends, one Indian, one Chinese here that way.
- ryanjshaw 12y ago
  Sadly not. It's just another way of obtaining a Tier 2 (General) visa, which comes with all the restrictions I have described. Telling somebody they can stick around for 5/6 years, contributing taxes and economic growth, starting a family, etc. but that they can't start their own business, and they may be told to leave in the end through no fault of their own, is a very lopsided proposal. EDIT: prior to 2010, there was a highly skilled migrant programme. You would be allowed to perform any kind of work in the UK, provided you met certain requirements. So you could arrive, work a highly skilled position and build a side business. Sure, it could fail, but at least that's through your own fault and you'd be working on it from day 1 so you'd find out sooner or later if you should remain or not. Today, you cannot do this. You have to hang around for 5/6 years, hope you get indefinite leave to remain (ILR), and only then are you allowed to start a business. But you might be refused ILR, and then you have to leave. It's a nonsensical policy when you consider people's private lives are involved.
  - walshemj 12y ago
    Most UK employers don't allow side business.
    - blibble 12y ago

jlangenauer 12y ago

There is the Tier 1 (Entrepreneur) visa, though it's not at all straight-forward - you need £200k investment, or £50k under conditions that I'm not sure it's possible to actually meet. https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-entrepreneur/overview https://www.gov.uk/tier-1-entrepreneur/overview

ryanjshaw 12y ago
Right, just a 200k investment :) This belies a very specific view of how enterpreneurship works. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple... none of these companies would have met a similar requirement in their times. Furthermore, by the time most people have 200k to investment a business they're likely to have settled in a geographically locked private life.
- berdario 12y ago
  It's not like in the US it would've been much easier for a foreigner: for an E2 Visa you're expected to have 100k-150k$
  - ryanjshaw 12y ago
    I'm not discussing the US? I'm expressing my hope that the UK returns to its more sensible pre-2010 highly skilled migrant policy.
    - berdario 12y ago
      Sure, I completely agree with the sentiment. I just pointed it out since you used 4 US companies as examples, and I thought you could be implying that it could be easier to start a company there for a foreigner.
- hcho 12y ago
  So how do you suggest they tell someone is really an entrepreneur? Genuine question. £200k is not a very huge amount of money by London standards. Maybe fully loaded cost of 2 senior developers for a year, if you get creative making it stretch. Any threshold below that would effectively be a open doors situation.

k-mcgrady 12y ago

Personally I'm for making immigration easier but how necessary is it for businesses considering that they can hire from anywhere in EU with very few hurdles? Are there really many people outside the EU that are so skilled that an alternative can't be found within the EU?

rtpg 12y ago
well, hiring from silicon valley for one thing
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  But my point is that the hiring pool is already huge (the entire EU). Are there lots of people in SV who want to move to London and who have skills that nobody in the EU does?
  - ryanjshaw 12y ago
    I'm in South Africa. I work for a global company with offices in London. I have very specific knowledge that makes me a natural candidate for employment by the London office that nobody in the EU would have. But I have private life and certain freedoms here in South Africa, which I have to give up to work in the UK under the current visa scheme. I would have to terminate all my side projects that earn revenue, and only work on non-income generating projects - or perhaps become a couch potato. How does that benefit the UK, bearing in mind I can easily get the visa with these restrictions? All the UK is going to end up with, under this policy, is a majority of migrants with no dreams to do anything bigger than what their boss tells them to do.
    - k-mcgrady 12y ago
      Thanks. Like I said in the original comment I'm for opening up immigration. I just wonder how many people there are like you. Are there enough to convince government the spend the time and money to change the immigration laws.

tim333 12y ago

There are ways for non EU folks to come here settle here. I'm not up on the details as they keep changing but basically if you come here to do a degree/masters they tend to let you stay on and work after and if you stick 10 years you can apply for UK citizenship. There's some sort of earnings requirement like you have to be making over £30k or something like that and be paying tax. I'm not sure it matters if the earnings come from employment or your own business. (some bumph here http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-11-15/uk-immigration-minister-says-graduates-can-stay-in-uk http://www.workpermit.com/news/2013-11-15/uk-immigration-min...). The norm seems to be to do a masters and then stay on with a job, then you could do a startup if you can get funding / customers to pay a suitable salary I think. I've got a couple of friends, one Indian, one Chinese here that way.

ryanjshaw 12y ago
Sadly not. It's just another way of obtaining a Tier 2 (General) visa, which comes with all the restrictions I have described. Telling somebody they can stick around for 5/6 years, contributing taxes and economic growth, starting a family, etc. but that they can't start their own business, and they may be told to leave in the end through no fault of their own, is a very lopsided proposal. EDIT: prior to 2010, there was a highly skilled migrant programme. You would be allowed to perform any kind of work in the UK, provided you met certain requirements. So you could arrive, work a highly skilled position and build a side business. Sure, it could fail, but at least that's through your own fault and you'd be working on it from day 1 so you'd find out sooner or later if you should remain or not. Today, you cannot do this. You have to hang around for 5/6 years, hope you get indefinite leave to remain (ILR), and only then are you allowed to start a business. But you might be refused ILR, and then you have to leave. It's a nonsensical policy when you consider people's private lives are involved.
- walshemj 12y ago
  Most UK employers don't allow side business.
  - blibble 12y ago