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I take a bit of an issue at the idea that extroversion is nonsense. I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, and really o

I take a bit of an issue at the idea that extroversion is nonsense. I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, and really only work when everyone's already highly skilled and experienced.

jasode 12y ago
Sorry for the confusion. To clarify, extroversion is not nonsense at all. It's a very desirable attribute. However, many of these team outings are perceived as "nonsense" by the types of minds that make up a significant percentage of programmers. It doesn't mean that programmers are anti-social. It's just that they'd rather hang out with people on their own terms instead of a corporate sponsored gathering. Yes, extroverted people are great. Baseball is also great. But going on a team outing to a baseball game might be "nonsense" to them. It's just the way it is. I'm just saying that dev managers need to take personality differences of programmers into account. Instead of team building, the manager is inadvertently causing team members to harbor resentment for wasting their time. >I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, Can you explain further what you mean by this? Why is there a belief that devs need to firewalk with their coworkers cheerleading on the sidelines to foster growth? That's not been my experience at all.
- RangerScience 12y ago
  First, /fantastic/ clarification. As for "terrible for growth", I'm referring to... well, mostly nevermind, because on a re-read I don't get the same sentiment from you at all! But to clarify anyway: At low values, the degree to which you are safe to make mistakes correlates with the nurturing-ness of the environment. (At high values, you get spoiled). If team bonding only happens over successes... well, are you free actually to make mistakes? I think I got hung up your examples of a "day-to-day" interactions being end-of-story success moments, making it easy to forget that that also includes the planning, brainstorming, putting out of fires, etc.
- soneca 12y ago
  Then you should just change the activity. It seems like you cherry pick the activities that are considered nonsense. Or import to regular, boring corporate HR things, that obvisouly don't work with developers. Why not create a mini-hackaton, a "built a game on a weekend", a Dota 2 challenge, an old school Dungeons & Dragons, a Pearl Jam concert. Just get what make the cinical devs thinks "that might be actual fun". EDIT: relating to the article, what I think might work is "sleep deprivation" working as bond maker. That is why I imagine this activities that might take a whole weekend and go accross the whole night.
  - jasode 12y ago
    >Then you should just change the activity. But this presupposes that there must be an extra-curricular activity in the first place and therefore, the activity must be "changed" until the manager finds the right one. My counterpoint does not depend on the existence of that team outing. Instead, what about the execution of quality work during day-to-day activities to act as the catalyst for team building? Yes, it's possible to build teamwork that way without the weekend firewalking event. In fact, if the team does quality work together, they may even self-organize a beer outing to celebrate a milestone. It happens organically without the pretense of an artificial corporate event. In other words, the work accomplished during 9am-5pm motivated the extra-curricular celebration. The opposite strategy is hoping that the extra-curricular "teambuilding" creates better camaraderie during 9am-5pm. The article I previously linked shows that doesn't always work.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    Or take them on a hike. You don't have to, shouldn't have to, talk on a hike. It is time together outside of work though. I've done strenuous hikes/scrambles with volunteers before, we grew much closer even though we didn't talk much.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Most team "outings" are organized by influencer/extrovert types and they are downright cringeworthy. I believe in treating people like adults, not children on a field trip.

jasode 12y ago

Sorry for the confusion. To clarify, extroversion is not nonsense at all. It's a very desirable attribute. However, many of these team outings are perceived as "nonsense" by the types of minds that make up a significant percentage of programmers. It doesn't mean that programmers are anti-social. It's just that they'd rather hang out with people on their own terms instead of a corporate sponsored gathering. Yes, extroverted people are great. Baseball is also great. But going on a team outing to a baseball game might be "nonsense" to them. It's just the way it is. I'm just saying that dev managers need to take personality differences of programmers into account. Instead of team building, the manager is inadvertently causing team members to harbor resentment for wasting their time. >I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, Can you explain further what you mean by this? Why is there a belief that devs need to firewalk with their coworkers cheerleading on the sidelines to foster growth? That's not been my experience at all.

RangerScience 12y ago
First, /fantastic/ clarification. As for "terrible for growth", I'm referring to... well, mostly nevermind, because on a re-read I don't get the same sentiment from you at all! But to clarify anyway: At low values, the degree to which you are safe to make mistakes correlates with the nurturing-ness of the environment. (At high values, you get spoiled). If team bonding only happens over successes... well, are you free actually to make mistakes? I think I got hung up your examples of a "day-to-day" interactions being end-of-story success moments, making it easy to forget that that also includes the planning, brainstorming, putting out of fires, etc.
soneca 12y ago
Then you should just change the activity. It seems like you cherry pick the activities that are considered nonsense. Or import to regular, boring corporate HR things, that obvisouly don't work with developers. Why not create a mini-hackaton, a "built a game on a weekend", a Dota 2 challenge, an old school Dungeons & Dragons, a Pearl Jam concert. Just get what make the cinical devs thinks "that might be actual fun". EDIT: relating to the article, what I think might work is "sleep deprivation" working as bond maker. That is why I imagine this activities that might take a whole weekend and go accross the whole night.
- jasode 12y ago
  >Then you should just change the activity. But this presupposes that there must be an extra-curricular activity in the first place and therefore, the activity must be "changed" until the manager finds the right one. My counterpoint does not depend on the existence of that team outing. Instead, what about the execution of quality work during day-to-day activities to act as the catalyst for team building? Yes, it's possible to build teamwork that way without the weekend firewalking event. In fact, if the team does quality work together, they may even self-organize a beer outing to celebrate a milestone. It happens organically without the pretense of an artificial corporate event. In other words, the work accomplished during 9am-5pm motivated the extra-curricular celebration. The opposite strategy is hoping that the extra-curricular "teambuilding" creates better camaraderie during 9am-5pm. The article I previously linked shows that doesn't always work.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Or take them on a hike. You don't have to, shouldn't have to, talk on a hike. It is time together outside of work though. I've done strenuous hikes/scrambles with volunteers before, we grew much closer even though we didn't talk much.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
Most team "outings" are organized by influencer/extrovert types and they are downright cringeworthy. I believe in treating people like adults, not children on a field trip.