5 ms·

If it worked for your particular team, that's fine but I want to present a different perspective on this: the developers I know despise that type of teambuldin

by jasode 12y ago

If it worked for your particular team, that's fine but I want to present a different perspective on this: the developers I know despise that type of teambulding activity. As a group, developers often lean more towards the introverted rather than the extroverted and spending more time with coworkers outside of work is not something they hunger for. Therefore, going to the manager's home for a backyard grillout to foster "social cohesion" would be perceived as weird theatrical manipulation. Others have come to the same conclusion[1] For these types of no-nonsense developers, the kinds of activities that really build teams is simply the day-to-day work interactions. E.g. when John checks in his source code or it's released into production servers, the colleagues know it's high quality and their smartphones won't have a zillion text messages about broken builds or devops alerts on Saturday night. All the team outings at the bowling alley, paintball battles, etc of "social cohesion" means nothing when a team member isn't pulling their weight and causing everyone else to stress out. [1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9063890/Team-building-doesnt-improve-work.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9063...

RangerScience 12y ago
I take a bit of an issue at the idea that extroversion is nonsense. I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, and really only work when everyone's already highly skilled and experienced.
- jasode 12y ago
  Sorry for the confusion. To clarify, extroversion is not nonsense at all. It's a very desirable attribute. However, many of these team outings are perceived as "nonsense" by the types of minds that make up a significant percentage of programmers. It doesn't mean that programmers are anti-social. It's just that they'd rather hang out with people on their own terms instead of a corporate sponsored gathering. Yes, extroverted people are great. Baseball is also great. But going on a team outing to a baseball game might be "nonsense" to them. It's just the way it is. I'm just saying that dev managers need to take personality differences of programmers into account. Instead of team building, the manager is inadvertently causing team members to harbor resentment for wasting their time. >I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, Can you explain further what you mean by this? Why is there a belief that devs need to firewalk with their coworkers cheerleading on the sidelines to foster growth? That's not been my experience at all.
  - RangerScience 12y ago
    First, /fantastic/ clarification. As for "terrible for growth", I'm referring to... well, mostly nevermind, because on a re-read I don't get the same sentiment from you at all! But to clarify anyway: At low values, the degree to which you are safe to make mistakes correlates with the nurturing-ness of the environment. (At high values, you get spoiled). If team bonding only happens over successes... well, are you free actually to make mistakes? I think I got hung up your examples of a "day-to-day" interactions being end-of-story success moments, making it easy to forget that that also includes the planning, brainstorming, putting out of fires, etc.
  - soneca 12y ago
    Then you should just change the activity. It seems like you cherry pick the activities that are considered nonsense. Or import to regular, boring corporate HR things, that obvisouly don't work with developers. Why not create a mini-hackaton, a "built a game on a weekend", a Dota 2 challenge, an old school Dungeons & Dragons, a Pearl Jam concert. Just get what make the cinical devs thinks "that might be actual fun". EDIT: relating to the article, what I think might work is "sleep deprivation" working as bond maker. That is why I imagine this activities that might take a whole weekend and go accross the whole night.
    - jasode 12y ago
      >Then you should just change the activity. But this presupposes that there must be an extra-curricular activity in the first place and therefore, the activity must be "changed" until the manager finds the right one. My counterpoint does not depend on the existence of that team outing. Instead, what about the execution of quality work during day-to-day activities to act as the catalyst for team building? Yes, it's possible to build teamwork that way without the weekend firewalking event. In fact, if the team does quality work together, they may even self-organize a beer outing to celebrate a milestone. It happens organically without the pretense of an artificial corporate event. In other words, the work accomplished during 9am-5pm motivated the extra-curricular celebration. The opposite strategy is hoping that the extra-curricular "teambuilding" creates better camaraderie during 9am-5pm. The article I previously linked shows that doesn't always work.
debt 12y ago
I don't think a "backyard grillout" builds social cohesion quite like a war in Iraq does. Put another way, I'm pretty sure the activity is what matters most for building social cohesion. It's not just about pulling your weight as much as it's also about helping your coworkers pull their weight as well. To put it more simply, less competition and more cooperation builds social cohesion.
- jasode 12y ago
  >I don't think a "backyard grillout" builds social cohesion quite like a war in Iraq does. I used the "backyard grillout" example because the poster I responded to mentioned it as a tool for unit cohesion in a later comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342642
  - RangerScience 12y ago
    ...to be fair, it was backyard grillout and axe throwing lesson. Remember the last time someone got you to do something you didn't think you could do? Or vice versa? Serious bonding moment, there.
    - ryanmarsh 12y ago
      Exactly. Nailed it. See my other comments.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  See my other comment. It was a thank you. I love how everyone zoomed into discussing introversion and completely missed the bulk of the comment which was around protecting the team and intrinsic motivation. Sigh HN.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
Yes. They are all introverts. I'm not your typical manager and yes I despise that team building crap too. It was an honest thanks and it was intimate. I invited them into my home and my wife and I cooked for them. The fire and hatchets was just a little goofy fun. edit: grammar
bowlofpetunias 12y ago
Nothing to do with being introverts. The manipulative nature of artificial team building exercises is an insult to the intelligence of any smart person with an analytical mind.

by jasode 12y ago

RangerScience 12y ago

I take a bit of an issue at the idea that extroversion is nonsense. I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, and really only work when everyone's already highly skilled and experienced.

jasode 12y ago
Sorry for the confusion. To clarify, extroversion is not nonsense at all. It's a very desirable attribute. However, many of these team outings are perceived as "nonsense" by the types of minds that make up a significant percentage of programmers. It doesn't mean that programmers are anti-social. It's just that they'd rather hang out with people on their own terms instead of a corporate sponsored gathering. Yes, extroverted people are great. Baseball is also great. But going on a team outing to a baseball game might be "nonsense" to them. It's just the way it is. I'm just saying that dev managers need to take personality differences of programmers into account. Instead of team building, the manager is inadvertently causing team members to harbor resentment for wasting their time. >I also find that teams that function like you describe are terrible for growth, Can you explain further what you mean by this? Why is there a belief that devs need to firewalk with their coworkers cheerleading on the sidelines to foster growth? That's not been my experience at all.
- RangerScience 12y ago
  First, /fantastic/ clarification. As for "terrible for growth", I'm referring to... well, mostly nevermind, because on a re-read I don't get the same sentiment from you at all! But to clarify anyway: At low values, the degree to which you are safe to make mistakes correlates with the nurturing-ness of the environment. (At high values, you get spoiled). If team bonding only happens over successes... well, are you free actually to make mistakes? I think I got hung up your examples of a "day-to-day" interactions being end-of-story success moments, making it easy to forget that that also includes the planning, brainstorming, putting out of fires, etc.
- soneca 12y ago
  Then you should just change the activity. It seems like you cherry pick the activities that are considered nonsense. Or import to regular, boring corporate HR things, that obvisouly don't work with developers. Why not create a mini-hackaton, a "built a game on a weekend", a Dota 2 challenge, an old school Dungeons & Dragons, a Pearl Jam concert. Just get what make the cinical devs thinks "that might be actual fun". EDIT: relating to the article, what I think might work is "sleep deprivation" working as bond maker. That is why I imagine this activities that might take a whole weekend and go accross the whole night.
  - jasode 12y ago
    >Then you should just change the activity. But this presupposes that there must be an extra-curricular activity in the first place and therefore, the activity must be "changed" until the manager finds the right one. My counterpoint does not depend on the existence of that team outing. Instead, what about the execution of quality work during day-to-day activities to act as the catalyst for team building? Yes, it's possible to build teamwork that way without the weekend firewalking event. In fact, if the team does quality work together, they may even self-organize a beer outing to celebrate a milestone. It happens organically without the pretense of an artificial corporate event. In other words, the work accomplished during 9am-5pm motivated the extra-curricular celebration. The opposite strategy is hoping that the extra-curricular "teambuilding" creates better camaraderie during 9am-5pm. The article I previously linked shows that doesn't always work.

debt 12y ago

I don't think a "backyard grillout" builds social cohesion quite like a war in Iraq does. Put another way, I'm pretty sure the activity is what matters most for building social cohesion. It's not just about pulling your weight as much as it's also about helping your coworkers pull their weight as well. To put it more simply, less competition and more cooperation builds social cohesion.

jasode 12y ago
>I don't think a "backyard grillout" builds social cohesion quite like a war in Iraq does. I used the "backyard grillout" example because the poster I responded to mentioned it as a tool for unit cohesion in a later comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342642
- RangerScience 12y ago
  ...to be fair, it was backyard grillout and axe throwing lesson. Remember the last time someone got you to do something you didn't think you could do? Or vice versa? Serious bonding moment, there.
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    Exactly. Nailed it. See my other comments.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
See my other comment. It was a thank you. I love how everyone zoomed into discussing introversion and completely missed the bulk of the comment which was around protecting the team and intrinsic motivation. Sigh HN.

ryanmarsh 12y ago

Yes. They are all introverts. I'm not your typical manager and yes I despise that team building crap too. It was an honest thanks and it was intimate. I invited them into my home and my wife and I cooked for them. The fire and hatchets was just a little goofy fun. edit: grammar

bowlofpetunias 12y ago

Nothing to do with being introverts. The manipulative nature of artificial team building exercises is an insult to the intelligence of any smart person with an analytical mind.