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I’m certain that if I had children, I would be failing at my job. I’ve hit my 30s, a period when it seems as if all of my friends suddenly have kids. That’s a

I’m certain that if I had children, I would be failing at my job. I’ve hit my 30s, a period when it seems as if all of my friends suddenly have kids. That’s a priority shift completely incompatible with my goals. Startups require that you give it all or go home, routinely requiring long nights, longer weekends, and blood and toil. If you aren’t willing to put in the hours, eager replacements are standing behind you. If I fail, the women I work with will be out of their jobs. It's this fearful attitude, lurking in the minds of bosses and employees, that is the problem facing women in the workplace who want to have children, more than anything else. (For example, I put it at the root of poor leave policies.) It's called sexism when it comes from a man, but here (from a female boss) it's clear it's just culture (American culture?). I just had my first kid, and my wife had to go back to work at six weeks. I'm a software engineer, and she's a medical device rep in trauma. Unlike me, she can't work from home, she carries a pager, and she can't choose her work hours or reduce them. She wasn't itching to go back to work either; she loved being at home with the new baby. However, you do what you have to do. Some new moms do quit their jobs, especially if they weren't making much more than they'd save on childcare by staying at home, or if it was a crappy work environment or an unfulfilling role anyway. However, for many, it's not an option not to work, and being a software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig that I would wish on moms everywhere. If you're afraid for yourself or someone else of having kids, go out and talk to some power moms.

mqsiuser 12y ago
> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig it can be > that I would wish on moms everywhere. I don't know any mom "hacking it" as their dayjob and honestly I am not sure if I'd whish them to (coding can be very demanding)
- eru 12y ago
  >> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig > it can be If it's not, you are either doing something wrong in the current climate, or you are more ambitious by choice. Pulling six figure salaries is laughably easy, if you are willing to move.
- judk 12y ago
  You.. Don't think mothers are programmers? Do you live in Alaska?
  - mqsiuser 12y ago
    I don't know any. Do you? The woman working in IT that I know are: Scrum Master, (Project/Assistant-)Manager, Team- & Department-Leads, QA and Testing. Could just pls one of the hacking moms reply with their experience? Preferably ones that manage it with 3 or more kids? Please leave you technology stack in the comment.
    - rabid_fish 12y ago
      My wife (currently asleep) and I have 3 children, and she's a .Net developer. I'm a Java dev. Every now and then we'll have discussions about various tech. We juggle care of the children between us. I have a young female coworker who has just had her first child. She a Java dev, and she has the respect of her fellow devs and management. Work life is balanced and family oriented here in the Midwest. Women are just as productive as men (and many are more so) and can serve in the same roles.
    - sethammons 12y ago
      The engineering department manager where I happily work was formerly my team lead, and prior to that, a team member, and for the prior decade, a programmer in a variety of industries. She knows her shit. Off the top of my head, I believe she has worked with oo and async perl and python, C, C++, some lisp, actionscript, javascript, and was about to pick up go prior to filling the manager role. Single mother of two. Our DBA is also a mom and a former python webdev.
zem 12y ago
coming from a woman doesn't preclude it being sexism - sexism is a structural rather than individual problem, and women are just as immersed in the overall sexist culture as men are.
- chongli 12y ago
  Right. To follow on the structural problem of sexism, I have a question: Is capitalism itself inherently sexist?
  - dominotw 12y ago
    are humans inherently sexist? Is there free will?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - Crito 12y ago
      Free will is one of my foma. I don't actually believe it exists in a meaningful sense, but I live my life as though it does. Pretending that it exists makes my life simpler and happier.
      - eru 12y ago
        First, you'd need to come up with a definition of free will that makes sense.
        Crito 12y ago
        What I satisfy myself is: "People are responsible for their own actions". That relies on some emotionally intuitive notion of "responsible" which I cannot bootstrap from what I know of the universe. That is why "free will" is foma to me. Rationally I do not believe it to exist because I cannot define it rationally (not only do I find myself unable to do it, I believe that it is not possible).
oxryly1 12y ago
> If you're afraid for yourself or someone else of having kids, go out and talk to some power moms. Ideally you ask the power moms and their adult children (from the future.) I bet the kids would mention other factors than their moms working during the early years.
- mqsiuser 12y ago
  "However, for many, it's not an option not to work", even when all the other factors mentioned are met. They want to be socially included (by doing a job).
ori_b 12y ago
As a man, I feel like if I took on kids, I wouldn't have the time to work on what I value and still do a good job of raising them. And that's with a stable, 9 to 5 job at a big company along with side projects. If I were working at a startup, where every deadline slip significantly affects the viability of the company, I would probably feel like I didn't have time for children and my startup. It doesn't have to be about sexism. Children are hugely expensive, and take a large chunk out of your life. Not everyone is willing or able to pay that price.
- mqsiuser 12y ago
  Everythings fine: Do hot stuff before and/or after having children. Slow down during family-time (and with that I mean having children from 0 to lets say 10 (after that they get more independent anyway)). Who wants to crush it from their 20ies to their 60ies? Still... a ... trade (I am/was willing to make)
- je42 12y ago
  Uhm. I know at least three farthers that got kids right when their startup was less than 3 years old... After having kids, you actually value your work time more. I have f.e. an almost strict 8 hour window. Hence, I try to make every minute count.
  - makomk 12y ago
    It may be easier for you to convince other people of that as a father than it would be if you were a mother, unfortunately. I've seen complaints before (admittedly, in other industries and academia) about fatherhood being seen as something that enhances men's ability to do their job and motherhood a thing that distracts women from theirs.
- protonfish 12y ago
  Children aren't as expensive as they say, but yes, they do take a huge chunk out of your life. It would be hard to imagine looking at a spreadsheet of the positives and negatives of breeding and deciding it was a good investment. But if you suddenly found yourself with a child, you'd find a way to take care of it and it'd end up being not so bad. Though I would not recommend having both parents keep full time jobs until free babysitting (public school) kicks in. Somebody should at least drop to part-time. The money saved on daycare nearly makes up for the lost income and you'll actually get to experience being a parent. Though you may need a smaller home and used cars. I know that's not very cool but if you are a parent you aren't going to be cool anymore anyhow so you may was well save the money. I thought that it was known that eternal crunch time in software dev is counter-productive anyhow?
eduardordm 12y ago
My wife has a successful career in federal court and I'm a CTO/Co-founder of a startup that became a medium-sized company. The impact of having a baby in our careers was insignificant. Yes we split the responsibilities, but being really honest, if you fail in whatever you are doing because of a baby, you would fail without it either. I would even say that a baby might even make you a bit more ruthless when it comes to making money and doing things in general. Yes, you won't have time for yourself, you will sleep less and will look miserable for a while. But I'm pretty sure raising a baby is the greatest thing I'll ever do in my life. That said, to be a power mom you just need a power partner.
- kefej89 12y ago
  "successful career in federal court" - LMAO. United states courts are jokes now a days and your wife had successful career. On weed ?
- quesera 12y ago
  > The impact of having a baby in our careers was insignificant. That depends entirely upon your minimum standards of parental involvement. Many would argue that the wet nurse/live-in nanny set qualify more as custodians than parents, per se. To each his and her own, but you're being a bit myopic. > That said, to be a power mom you just need a power partner. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here.
  - eduardordm 12y ago
    We did hire a nanny, we both work 7 and 8 hours a day the rest is spent with the baby. As our baby sleep almost half of the time we aren't home, we lose just 4 or 5 hours of parenting time on weekdays. Not sarcastic at all, What I was trying to say is that most power moms are really moms that have support of their partners.
    - ThomPete 12y ago
      You are talking to a guy who moved to the US from Denmark for nine months before my wife and son came over here so not casting any judgement here just a heads up. Your baby wont continue being a baby and before you know it they are awake most of the time when you are not around and asleep when you are. I see many parents who end up seeing their kid for maybe 1 hour a day after they reach the age of 3.
rmc 12y ago
It's called sexism when it comes from a man, but here (from a female boss) it's clear it's just culture (American culture?). Nothing says women can't be sexist against women. (Though this stuff is complex)

mqsiuser 12y ago

> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig it can be > that I would wish on moms everywhere. I don't know any mom "hacking it" as their dayjob and honestly I am not sure if I'd whish them to (coding can be very demanding)

eru 12y ago
>> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig > it can be If it's not, you are either doing something wrong in the current climate, or you are more ambitious by choice. Pulling six figure salaries is laughably easy, if you are willing to move.
judk 12y ago
You.. Don't think mothers are programmers? Do you live in Alaska?
- mqsiuser 12y ago
  I don't know any. Do you? The woman working in IT that I know are: Scrum Master, (Project/Assistant-)Manager, Team- & Department-Leads, QA and Testing. Could just pls one of the hacking moms reply with their experience? Preferably ones that manage it with 3 or more kids? Please leave you technology stack in the comment.
  - rabid_fish 12y ago
    My wife (currently asleep) and I have 3 children, and she's a .Net developer. I'm a Java dev. Every now and then we'll have discussions about various tech. We juggle care of the children between us. I have a young female coworker who has just had her first child. She a Java dev, and she has the respect of her fellow devs and management. Work life is balanced and family oriented here in the Midwest. Women are just as productive as men (and many are more so) and can serve in the same roles.
  - sethammons 12y ago
    The engineering department manager where I happily work was formerly my team lead, and prior to that, a team member, and for the prior decade, a programmer in a variety of industries. She knows her shit. Off the top of my head, I believe she has worked with oo and async perl and python, C, C++, some lisp, actionscript, javascript, and was about to pick up go prior to filling the manager role. Single mother of two. Our DBA is also a mom and a former python webdev.

zem 12y ago

coming from a woman doesn't preclude it being sexism - sexism is a structural rather than individual problem, and women are just as immersed in the overall sexist culture as men are.

chongli 12y ago
Right. To follow on the structural problem of sexism, I have a question: Is capitalism itself inherently sexist?
- dominotw 12y ago
  are humans inherently sexist? Is there free will?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - Crito 12y ago
    Free will is one of my foma. I don't actually believe it exists in a meaningful sense, but I live my life as though it does. Pretending that it exists makes my life simpler and happier.
    - eru 12y ago
      First, you'd need to come up with a definition of free will that makes sense.
      - Crito 12y ago
        What I satisfy myself is: "People are responsible for their own actions". That relies on some emotionally intuitive notion of "responsible" which I cannot bootstrap from what I know of the universe. That is why "free will" is foma to me. Rationally I do not believe it to exist because I cannot define it rationally (not only do I find myself unable to do it, I believe that it is not possible).

oxryly1 12y ago

> If you're afraid for yourself or someone else of having kids, go out and talk to some power moms. Ideally you ask the power moms and their adult children (from the future.) I bet the kids would mention other factors than their moms working during the early years.

mqsiuser 12y ago
"However, for many, it's not an option not to work", even when all the other factors mentioned are met. They want to be socially included (by doing a job).

ori_b 12y ago

As a man, I feel like if I took on kids, I wouldn't have the time to work on what I value and still do a good job of raising them. And that's with a stable, 9 to 5 job at a big company along with side projects. If I were working at a startup, where every deadline slip significantly affects the viability of the company, I would probably feel like I didn't have time for children and my startup. It doesn't have to be about sexism. Children are hugely expensive, and take a large chunk out of your life. Not everyone is willing or able to pay that price.

mqsiuser 12y ago
Everythings fine: Do hot stuff before and/or after having children. Slow down during family-time (and with that I mean having children from 0 to lets say 10 (after that they get more independent anyway)). Who wants to crush it from their 20ies to their 60ies? Still... a ... trade (I am/was willing to make)
je42 12y ago
Uhm. I know at least three farthers that got kids right when their startup was less than 3 years old... After having kids, you actually value your work time more. I have f.e. an almost strict 8 hour window. Hence, I try to make every minute count.
- makomk 12y ago
  It may be easier for you to convince other people of that as a father than it would be if you were a mother, unfortunately. I've seen complaints before (admittedly, in other industries and academia) about fatherhood being seen as something that enhances men's ability to do their job and motherhood a thing that distracts women from theirs.
protonfish 12y ago
Children aren't as expensive as they say, but yes, they do take a huge chunk out of your life. It would be hard to imagine looking at a spreadsheet of the positives and negatives of breeding and deciding it was a good investment. But if you suddenly found yourself with a child, you'd find a way to take care of it and it'd end up being not so bad. Though I would not recommend having both parents keep full time jobs until free babysitting (public school) kicks in. Somebody should at least drop to part-time. The money saved on daycare nearly makes up for the lost income and you'll actually get to experience being a parent. Though you may need a smaller home and used cars. I know that's not very cool but if you are a parent you aren't going to be cool anymore anyhow so you may was well save the money. I thought that it was known that eternal crunch time in software dev is counter-productive anyhow?

eduardordm 12y ago

My wife has a successful career in federal court and I'm a CTO/Co-founder of a startup that became a medium-sized company. The impact of having a baby in our careers was insignificant. Yes we split the responsibilities, but being really honest, if you fail in whatever you are doing because of a baby, you would fail without it either. I would even say that a baby might even make you a bit more ruthless when it comes to making money and doing things in general. Yes, you won't have time for yourself, you will sleep less and will look miserable for a while. But I'm pretty sure raising a baby is the greatest thing I'll ever do in my life. That said, to be a power mom you just need a power partner.

kefej89 12y ago
"successful career in federal court" - LMAO. United states courts are jokes now a days and your wife had successful career. On weed ?
quesera 12y ago
> The impact of having a baby in our careers was insignificant. That depends entirely upon your minimum standards of parental involvement. Many would argue that the wet nurse/live-in nanny set qualify more as custodians than parents, per se. To each his and her own, but you're being a bit myopic. > That said, to be a power mom you just need a power partner. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic here.
- eduardordm 12y ago
  We did hire a nanny, we both work 7 and 8 hours a day the rest is spent with the baby. As our baby sleep almost half of the time we aren't home, we lose just 4 or 5 hours of parenting time on weekdays. Not sarcastic at all, What I was trying to say is that most power moms are really moms that have support of their partners.
  - ThomPete 12y ago
    You are talking to a guy who moved to the US from Denmark for nine months before my wife and son came over here so not casting any judgement here just a heads up. Your baby wont continue being a baby and before you know it they are awake most of the time when you are not around and asleep when you are. I see many parents who end up seeing their kid for maybe 1 hour a day after they reach the age of 3.

rmc 12y ago

It's called sexism when it comes from a man, but here (from a female boss) it's clear it's just culture (American culture?). Nothing says women can't be sexist against women. (Though this stuff is complex)