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Trial by Fire: Extreme rituals forge intense social bonds

53 points by Thevet 12y ago

nine_k 12y ago
I wonder how much is this causation vs selection. If someone is willing to pass an extreme rite of passage (like trial by fire) to be accepted, isn't (s)he already primed to form a stronger social bond, compared to someone who would only be willing to pass through a simple, non-straining ritual (like hand-shaking)? I suspect that most of the "hand-shaking" crowd would simply shun an extreme ritual, instead of being transformed by it.
- andrewstuart2 12y ago
  I'd put my money on a bit of both, but I'd put more of that money on the causation side. As a thought experiment, imagine going through situations where you had no choice with somebody who becomes the only person you can count on. Not only can you expect to be able to count on that person in the future, but you have an exclusively shared experience. Both of those happen regardless of whether either of you had a choice.
- maxxxxx 12y ago
  In boxing or other martial arts there is this phenomenon that you often like or respect your opponent after a fight. And that despite trying to knock him out. You certainly weren't planning on creating a social bond. I think there something that makes going through difficulties together a bonding experience.
- Havoc 12y ago
  >If someone is willing to pass an extreme rite of passage From experience I can tell you that these things tend to sneak up on you. You don't sign up for one unit of "extreme rite of passage"...it just kinda happens. Just roll with the punches - absorb, learn, adapt...you'll emerge 10x stronger. I certainly did.
  - RangerScience 12y ago
    You can aim for them, definitely. Mostly by aiming higher than you can reach.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  Bonding happens even when the trial by fire is unexpected and unwanted. All you need is to survive it. :)
Loughla 12y ago
I honestly thought this was old news, with the military and what-not. Ignoring the physical fitness, isn't this the basic idea behind boot camps for military service?
- the-dude 12y ago
  Indeed. Student fraternity rituals as well.
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  Partly, but boot camp mostly serves as cultural indoctrination. I will add that the camaraderie most people miss when they leave the service is from losing the daily interaction with people whom relationships were formed through adversity, even just the humdrum daily adversity of military life. This is why all of my friends, even if we didn't serve together, are ex-military. They just "get it".
  - moggflunkies 12y ago
    I have never heard it so eloquently put!
com2kid 12y ago
I wonder what sort of implications this has for interview techniques. Could the grueling day (or multi-day!) long interviews that tech companies are famous for actually be a way to make those who pass value their job more?
- HarryHirsch 12y ago
  You can bet that a lengthy interviewing process is a sales ploy, as are those emails from HR saying "XY was very impressed by your interview performance". Do you really think that HR has different canned emails for candidates, with "very impressed" for some and just "impressed" for others?
ryanmarsh 12y ago
I use this knowledge to build hyper effective software teams. In the military I learned just how much the cohesion of a group contributes to its success. Two major factors of unit cohesion that I observed were pride in the mission, and emotional bonds within the group. The two combined are almost unstoppable. This is a little uncanny as I stopped from booking a flight to my 10 year deployment reunion just to share this thought with you. Also, I was in Baghdad during an Ashura. It was a vivid sight to behold. The whole neighborhood was definitely alive with a kind of electricity.
- meatcar 12y ago
  Do you mind expanding on your first statement, perhaps with an example? How do you apply something like fire-walking to a software team without breaking some workplace safety and labour laws?
  - ryanmarsh 12y ago
    LOL, well one night I brought the team over to my house, lit a big fire (I have a huge backyard), burned some steaks (no diet restrictions in that group), and we threw hatchets at an oak tree... That's not really it, but it just goes to show what I'm willing to do. I really pushed them to achieve more than they believed they could. I had several of the guys say they've never worked harder on a project but also never been more proud of what they built. I've heard this many times over the years. The key is to not just crack the whip. That's so demoralizing. Soldiers are human, you can't get people to do what you want if you're constantly pressing on them. It's no different for programmers. You have to play cheerleader, you have to tell them you believe they can do just a little bit more than they think they can, you have to watch the body language and know when the team is beat. You have to employ your unit in accordance with it's capabilities. Never set them up for a failure. You have to make sure they get fed first, they get rest first. You have to insure that they can explain to others how important or meaningful this thing they are doing is. Shareholder value is a disgusting insult, what innate human need do they have that creating this thing will fill? Strike there. Most programmers just want to make a difference in someones life, make something people will use. I arranged for a team to spend time at a package sorting facility on an airfield in the freezing rain so they could feel the pain and frustration of the people using outdated technology. I arranged for another team to spend time with a group of stressed out next-to-tears "release of medical records team" that had mail come in by the truck load. Inspire the team that what they are going to do actually changes lives, then hold them to a high standard (just outside of what they believe is possible) and lead the charge by working harder than any of them. You have to run interference for them, catch 100% of the bullshit. I once inadvertently let a developer listen in on a call while a customer screamed at me and insulted the team (not present), I stood up for them and made the client apologize. The developer saw how incredulous I was, and was amazed at how much shit I took for them. He told the others and it went a long way to build trust. Trust is a big one, in the military I learned about moral authority. It basically means, if you are ALWAYS doing the "right thing" the good moral honest thing by the group when you ask them to do something hard or painful they will do it because they know you aren't asking out of self protection they know you've done everything to protect them from what you are about to ask them to do. How many times have you had a boss that would lay down his career to protect you from having to do something stupid and painful? So yes, I've been fired plenty, I've also been the guy they send in after everything is shot to hell as well. I love being a snake eater. I can't say it's always worked out perfect or that I've always been the model leader. I've grown quite a bit over the years and learned from my mistakes. The principles I learned in combat arms do absolutely translate though. My motto is, get the team to the top of the hill without anyone getting killed. It's a metaphor for doing hard things without it turning into a death march. I could write so much more. Hopefully I've answered your question.
Havoc 12y ago
I don't know about "extreme rituals" but I did recently experience the power of bonds forged in the (metaphorical) trenches. i.e. Among those in the trenches a "Us vs Them" mentality takes hold. Us being the ones in the trenches and "Them" being everyone else. So when a peer is in trouble then people will do whatever it takes to help (since he/she is one of "us") but when a general shows up the nobody is willing to go beyond the bare minimum (since the general was not in the trenches and is not "one of us"). Might not be ideal in terms of the overall picture but in terms of group dynamics I've never seen anything even vaguely as powerfully as that "Us vs Them" loyalty.
mrrrgn 12y ago
I've played sports my entire life (father was a basketball coach), and in that world these sorts of "rites of passage" are common place. I've also seen a bit of this at software companies -- for instance at Facebook I got the feeling that a lot of engineers felt simpatico as a result of the shared "suffering" that went into the tedious interview process. My experiences led me to believe that, while this can be effective, it only works on certain classes of people. That is, I think a person needs a certain amount of naïveté to be drawn in by schemes like this. They need to already be willing to buy into some litany of conquest and glory. To be young and/or dumb. Perhaps it is an innate human tendency to form stronger bonds under these conditions; but it's certainly not expressed equally throughout all phases of life, circumstances, and the population at large. I'd be very wary of attempting to exploit it by constructing rituals for a software team.
- RangerScience 12y ago
  I think you're reacting to the fake-ness in catered/fabricated bonding experiences. There's no way classic corporate training will match, say, skydiving, or a survivalist weekend. There's a reason Burning Man is considered a year's worth of relationship. I want to say that the dividing line is whether or not the experience is as likely to break bonds as it is to create them. I don't expect to burn a bridge at a company retreat... but I would expect to burn some doing Survivor with my team. Basically, yeah, I agree with you that it takes naivete to be drawn into /schemes/... but you can have these experiences without them being machinations. Or, at least, machinations of the sort that "when friends use you, it makes you stronger."
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  > My experiences led me to believe that, while this can be effective, it only works on certain classes of people. That is, I think a person needs a certain amount of naïveté to be drawn in by schemes like this. They need to already be willing to buy into some litany of conquest and glory. To be young and/or dumb. Only if the ritual is superficial. When we're talking self-flagellation, or hunting elephants as a group, things operate on a quite different level.
theatgrex 12y ago
use this one weird trick to forge a bond among your peers and vanquish your enemies

53 points by Thevet 12y ago

I wonder how much is this causation vs selection. If someone is willing to pass an extreme rite of passage (like trial by fire) to be accepted, isn't (s)he already primed to form a stronger social bond, compared to someone who would only be willing to pass through a simple, non-straining ritual (like hand-shaking)? I suspect that most of the "hand-shaking" crowd would simply shun an extreme ritual, instead of being transformed by it.

andrewstuart2 12y ago
I'd put my money on a bit of both, but I'd put more of that money on the causation side. As a thought experiment, imagine going through situations where you had no choice with somebody who becomes the only person you can count on. Not only can you expect to be able to count on that person in the future, but you have an exclusively shared experience. Both of those happen regardless of whether either of you had a choice.
maxxxxx 12y ago
In boxing or other martial arts there is this phenomenon that you often like or respect your opponent after a fight. And that despite trying to knock him out. You certainly weren't planning on creating a social bond. I think there something that makes going through difficulties together a bonding experience.
Havoc 12y ago
>If someone is willing to pass an extreme rite of passage From experience I can tell you that these things tend to sneak up on you. You don't sign up for one unit of "extreme rite of passage"...it just kinda happens. Just roll with the punches - absorb, learn, adapt...you'll emerge 10x stronger. I certainly did.
- RangerScience 12y ago
  You can aim for them, definitely. Mostly by aiming higher than you can reach.
Florin_Andrei 12y ago
Bonding happens even when the trial by fire is unexpected and unwanted. All you need is to survive it. :)

Loughla 12y ago

I honestly thought this was old news, with the military and what-not. Ignoring the physical fitness, isn't this the basic idea behind boot camps for military service?

the-dude 12y ago
Indeed. Student fraternity rituals as well.
ryanmarsh 12y ago
Partly, but boot camp mostly serves as cultural indoctrination. I will add that the camaraderie most people miss when they leave the service is from losing the daily interaction with people whom relationships were formed through adversity, even just the humdrum daily adversity of military life. This is why all of my friends, even if we didn't serve together, are ex-military. They just "get it".
- moggflunkies 12y ago
  I have never heard it so eloquently put!

com2kid 12y ago

I wonder what sort of implications this has for interview techniques. Could the grueling day (or multi-day!) long interviews that tech companies are famous for actually be a way to make those who pass value their job more?

HarryHirsch 12y ago
You can bet that a lengthy interviewing process is a sales ploy, as are those emails from HR saying "XY was very impressed by your interview performance". Do you really think that HR has different canned emails for candidates, with "very impressed" for some and just "impressed" for others?

ryanmarsh 12y ago

I use this knowledge to build hyper effective software teams. In the military I learned just how much the cohesion of a group contributes to its success. Two major factors of unit cohesion that I observed were pride in the mission, and emotional bonds within the group. The two combined are almost unstoppable. This is a little uncanny as I stopped from booking a flight to my 10 year deployment reunion just to share this thought with you. Also, I was in Baghdad during an Ashura. It was a vivid sight to behold. The whole neighborhood was definitely alive with a kind of electricity.

meatcar 12y ago
Do you mind expanding on your first statement, perhaps with an example? How do you apply something like fire-walking to a software team without breaking some workplace safety and labour laws?
- ryanmarsh 12y ago
  LOL, well one night I brought the team over to my house, lit a big fire (I have a huge backyard), burned some steaks (no diet restrictions in that group), and we threw hatchets at an oak tree... That's not really it, but it just goes to show what I'm willing to do. I really pushed them to achieve more than they believed they could. I had several of the guys say they've never worked harder on a project but also never been more proud of what they built. I've heard this many times over the years. The key is to not just crack the whip. That's so demoralizing. Soldiers are human, you can't get people to do what you want if you're constantly pressing on them. It's no different for programmers. You have to play cheerleader, you have to tell them you believe they can do just a little bit more than they think they can, you have to watch the body language and know when the team is beat. You have to employ your unit in accordance with it's capabilities. Never set them up for a failure. You have to make sure they get fed first, they get rest first. You have to insure that they can explain to others how important or meaningful this thing they are doing is. Shareholder value is a disgusting insult, what innate human need do they have that creating this thing will fill? Strike there. Most programmers just want to make a difference in someones life, make something people will use. I arranged for a team to spend time at a package sorting facility on an airfield in the freezing rain so they could feel the pain and frustration of the people using outdated technology. I arranged for another team to spend time with a group of stressed out next-to-tears "release of medical records team" that had mail come in by the truck load. Inspire the team that what they are going to do actually changes lives, then hold them to a high standard (just outside of what they believe is possible) and lead the charge by working harder than any of them. You have to run interference for them, catch 100% of the bullshit. I once inadvertently let a developer listen in on a call while a customer screamed at me and insulted the team (not present), I stood up for them and made the client apologize. The developer saw how incredulous I was, and was amazed at how much shit I took for them. He told the others and it went a long way to build trust. Trust is a big one, in the military I learned about moral authority. It basically means, if you are ALWAYS doing the "right thing" the good moral honest thing by the group when you ask them to do something hard or painful they will do it because they know you aren't asking out of self protection they know you've done everything to protect them from what you are about to ask them to do. How many times have you had a boss that would lay down his career to protect you from having to do something stupid and painful? So yes, I've been fired plenty, I've also been the guy they send in after everything is shot to hell as well. I love being a snake eater. I can't say it's always worked out perfect or that I've always been the model leader. I've grown quite a bit over the years and learned from my mistakes. The principles I learned in combat arms do absolutely translate though. My motto is, get the team to the top of the hill without anyone getting killed. It's a metaphor for doing hard things without it turning into a death march. I could write so much more. Hopefully I've answered your question.

Havoc 12y ago

I don't know about "extreme rituals" but I did recently experience the power of bonds forged in the (metaphorical) trenches. i.e. Among those in the trenches a "Us vs Them" mentality takes hold. Us being the ones in the trenches and "Them" being everyone else. So when a peer is in trouble then people will do whatever it takes to help (since he/she is one of "us") but when a general shows up the nobody is willing to go beyond the bare minimum (since the general was not in the trenches and is not "one of us"). Might not be ideal in terms of the overall picture but in terms of group dynamics I've never seen anything even vaguely as powerfully as that "Us vs Them" loyalty.

mrrrgn 12y ago

I've played sports my entire life (father was a basketball coach), and in that world these sorts of "rites of passage" are common place. I've also seen a bit of this at software companies -- for instance at Facebook I got the feeling that a lot of engineers felt simpatico as a result of the shared "suffering" that went into the tedious interview process. My experiences led me to believe that, while this can be effective, it only works on certain classes of people. That is, I think a person needs a certain amount of naïveté to be drawn in by schemes like this. They need to already be willing to buy into some litany of conquest and glory. To be young and/or dumb. Perhaps it is an innate human tendency to form stronger bonds under these conditions; but it's certainly not expressed equally throughout all phases of life, circumstances, and the population at large. I'd be very wary of attempting to exploit it by constructing rituals for a software team.

RangerScience 12y ago
I think you're reacting to the fake-ness in catered/fabricated bonding experiences. There's no way classic corporate training will match, say, skydiving, or a survivalist weekend. There's a reason Burning Man is considered a year's worth of relationship. I want to say that the dividing line is whether or not the experience is as likely to break bonds as it is to create them. I don't expect to burn a bridge at a company retreat... but I would expect to burn some doing Survivor with my team. Basically, yeah, I agree with you that it takes naivete to be drawn into /schemes/... but you can have these experiences without them being machinations. Or, at least, machinations of the sort that "when friends use you, it makes you stronger."
Florin_Andrei 12y ago
> My experiences led me to believe that, while this can be effective, it only works on certain classes of people. That is, I think a person needs a certain amount of naïveté to be drawn in by schemes like this. They need to already be willing to buy into some litany of conquest and glory. To be young and/or dumb. Only if the ritual is superficial. When we're talking self-flagellation, or hunting elephants as a group, things operate on a quite different level.

theatgrex 12y ago

use this one weird trick to forge a bond among your peers and vanquish your enemies