4 ms·

"Why are EU youth joining the ISIS? They don't have any other opportunities in life." That's an utter and complete lie. Even if you believe it explains the Ar

"Why are EU youth joining the ISIS? They don't have any other opportunities in life." That's an utter and complete lie. Even if you believe it explains the Arabs who join the ISIS (which it doesn't), it certainly doesn't explain why the European converts do.

tomp 12y ago
It's probably not the whole story, but the way I see it: First, it's not "the European converts" that join ISIS, it's the Muslims that live in European countries (so no converting necessary, in the religious sense). Second, I haven't had much contact with this immigrant minority, but from the media, I get the feeling that they are not really "respected" - their culture and heritage is demonized left and right, they are "foreigners" and "people of color". Probably, this got much worse after 9/11 and other terrorist attacks (e.g. in the UK), and was quite bad even before (e.g. in France, from what I hear). Thirdly, the economic melt-down. It affects all people, but it affects the youth disproportionately, and I assume the immigrant population also. Immigrant youth -> affected really really badly. They see that people from the older generations got it much better (essentially, for most of their lives, things were getting better), while their (our?) future is full of problems (unemployment, both from the recession and from automation; climate issues and ecology; terrorism; dwindling natural resources). Is it really so hard to believe that they feel really disillusioned? Anyways, you say it's a lie, what's the truth then, in your opinion?
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  It's definitely also converts :( Your second point is not even wrong. There's plenty of respect for decent people who treat others right. There is a growing dissatisfaction with religious nutcases and criminals and layabouts. There is outright fear and hatred for those who terrorize their neighbourhoods. And why shouldn't Islam be disrespected? Is it a good religion? Is it tolerant? Is it really the religion of peace? And why should honour killings and clannishness be respected? Besides, schools are free, secondary and tertiary educations are free or heavily subsidized. As to your third point, the economic meltdown and the enormous youth unemployment is mostly a Southern thing. Having a large unofficial economic sector is also mostly a Southern thing -- so the real unemployment rates are thankfully lower. The youth unemployment has more to do with rigid and stupid labour markets than with the global finance crisis or the Euro crisis. At least those who speak English (or a Northern language) have a chance to emigrate. The migrant workers in the South who are hard hit by the crisis are mostly Africans, not Arabs. The ISIS terrorists are mostly Arab. I haven't heard of a single Sub-Saharan African in ISIS. The truth is that the (economically) Western European countries have been bending backwards for years (decades) to help them and that we have been treated badly every step of the way. The truth is, unfortunately, that not everybody is a good person, not everybody is equally aggressive and violent, not everybody is equally intelligent, and not every culture is good. And what's worse, aggression, violence, trust, and intelligence are all partially inherited.
  - IkmoIkmo 12y ago
    > The truth is that the (economically) Western European countries have been bending backwards for years (decades) to help them and that we have been treated badly every step of the way Bending backwards how, helping who and being treated badly how? > aggression, violence, trust, and intelligence are all partially inherited. As we're talking about cultural and societal conflicts, are you suggesting that genetic aggressive or violent tendencies are part of arab/muslim DNA? It's this level of nonsense that seems so pervasive, sometimes spoken out literally, but often merely implied. It fits perfectly in the creation of the 'other' as edward said puts it, or the untermensch we're all familiar with. If you're not saying it, it definitely seems you're implying it. And there's tons of this in Europe, e.g. a quote from Rushton's wiki: >> In 2009 Rushton spoke at the Preserving Western Civilization conference in Baltimore. It was organized by Michael H. Hart for the stated purpose of "addressing the need" to defend "America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity" from immigrants, Muslims, and African Americans.[36][37] In his speech, Rushton said that Islam was not just a cultural, but also a genetic problem. He thought the religion and issues associated with it were not just a condition of the belief system. His theory was that Arabs have an aggressive personality with relatively closed, simple minds, and were less amenable to reason.[38] The Anti-Defamation League described the conference attendees as "racist academics, conservative pundits and anti-immigrant activists".[39] As for the first point on plenty of respect for decent people, are you an immigrant minority? Well I can see you're not. (where are you from, btw?) I am. I've been cussed at in the street, spit on and told to go back to my 'own country'. I'm Dutch born, Dutch mother, jewish girlfriend, atheist, university educated, entrepreneur, but as I'm also an arab and look like one, I get 'plenty of respect'. And there's literally not a single arab I'm friends with or a relative to who hasn't had this experience (although I don't know THAT many). In fact my neighbour isn't my neighbour anymore, he was a teacher here but he and his family moved back to North-Africa after his wife was spit on years ago. As for your other points on islam, what islam? You say it as if it's a singular thing. I'm not a muslim, an atheist in fact, but for me to talk about 'islam' without any context is as ridiculous as saying we should criticize water because it's the leading cause of drowning. Without context asking if 'water' is 'good' or 'islam' is 'good' is laughably silly.
  - bkirwi 12y ago
    > And why shouldn't Islam be disrespected? Is it a good religion? Is it tolerant? Is it really the religion of peace? There are many peaceful and tolerant Muslims, just as there are many peaceful and tolerant Christians. Of course, you rarely see these people in the news; but even a small amount of research will show this to be the case. > And why should honour killings and clannishness be respected? They shouldn't, of course; but I think you'll find that very few western Muslims do. You may also find that a lot of the problems stem from the fact that many people consider them stupid, aggressive, violent, murderous, and not worthy of respect.
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  >> I haven't had much contact with this immigrant minority, but from the media, I get the feeling that they are not really "respected" - their culture and heritage is demonized left and right, they are "foreigners" and "people of color". Probably, this got much worse after 9/11 and other terrorist attacks (e.g. in the UK), and was quite bad even before (e.g. in France, from what I hear). I'm part of this minority (immigrant father, look like an immigrant, arabic name) and this part is completely true. And I can say this despite having a Dutch mother, being an atheist, having plenty of economic opportunities, a jewish girlfriend and having no affiliation with islam. The way people who look like me, or that have my father's religion, are treated here in the EU, is downright nasty. It stings my heart, again, even though I have limited affiliation with my heritage that's so vilified here. If I actually identified myself with islam it'd be very easy to feel as if it's 'us vs them'. But the economic melt-down. Look, I hear what you're saying, it does affect immigrants more harshly as they're generally in a socioeconomic position that's less well equiped to deal with economic hardship. (from the lack of a professional network, culture divide to the illiteracy of many first generation immigrants). And I've experienced my fair share of economic hardship, too, like picking the leftover damaged potatoes and tomatoes from the street after marketmen close up shop at night. but I don't really see this as a deciding factor at all. The story of Casablanca slums just don't apply (watch Horses of God if you're interested!), in my experience and opinion, to Europe. It does generate a certain sentiment, a pessimism, it can take away pockets of dignity, that make a person more susceptible to a crazy imam's rhetoric, but at the end of the day Europe is a pretty brilliant place to live when you're poor. I can't imagine a better place after Scandinavia. I think it's far from a deciding factor. If the above (cultural demonization and rash foreign policies) hadn't happened, even if there was twice as much unemployment, I don't think EU youth joining ISIS would've really been a problem. That having been said, in my opinion the whole eu youth joining isis is way overblown, but that's another discussion I won't invite myself to have! I'll be happy to discuss though if you want.

tomp 12y ago

It's probably not the whole story, but the way I see it: First, it's not "the European converts" that join ISIS, it's the Muslims that live in European countries (so no converting necessary, in the religious sense). Second, I haven't had much contact with this immigrant minority, but from the media, I get the feeling that they are not really "respected" - their culture and heritage is demonized left and right, they are "foreigners" and "people of color". Probably, this got much worse after 9/11 and other terrorist attacks (e.g. in the UK), and was quite bad even before (e.g. in France, from what I hear). Thirdly, the economic melt-down. It affects all people, but it affects the youth disproportionately, and I assume the immigrant population also. Immigrant youth -> affected really really badly. They see that people from the older generations got it much better (essentially, for most of their lives, things were getting better), while their (our?) future is full of problems (unemployment, both from the recession and from automation; climate issues and ecology; terrorism; dwindling natural resources). Is it really so hard to believe that they feel really disillusioned? Anyways, you say it's a lie, what's the truth then, in your opinion?

peterfirefly 12y ago
It's definitely also converts :( Your second point is not even wrong. There's plenty of respect for decent people who treat others right. There is a growing dissatisfaction with religious nutcases and criminals and layabouts. There is outright fear and hatred for those who terrorize their neighbourhoods. And why shouldn't Islam be disrespected? Is it a good religion? Is it tolerant? Is it really the religion of peace? And why should honour killings and clannishness be respected? Besides, schools are free, secondary and tertiary educations are free or heavily subsidized. As to your third point, the economic meltdown and the enormous youth unemployment is mostly a Southern thing. Having a large unofficial economic sector is also mostly a Southern thing -- so the real unemployment rates are thankfully lower. The youth unemployment has more to do with rigid and stupid labour markets than with the global finance crisis or the Euro crisis. At least those who speak English (or a Northern language) have a chance to emigrate. The migrant workers in the South who are hard hit by the crisis are mostly Africans, not Arabs. The ISIS terrorists are mostly Arab. I haven't heard of a single Sub-Saharan African in ISIS. The truth is that the (economically) Western European countries have been bending backwards for years (decades) to help them and that we have been treated badly every step of the way. The truth is, unfortunately, that not everybody is a good person, not everybody is equally aggressive and violent, not everybody is equally intelligent, and not every culture is good. And what's worse, aggression, violence, trust, and intelligence are all partially inherited.
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  > The truth is that the (economically) Western European countries have been bending backwards for years (decades) to help them and that we have been treated badly every step of the way Bending backwards how, helping who and being treated badly how? > aggression, violence, trust, and intelligence are all partially inherited. As we're talking about cultural and societal conflicts, are you suggesting that genetic aggressive or violent tendencies are part of arab/muslim DNA? It's this level of nonsense that seems so pervasive, sometimes spoken out literally, but often merely implied. It fits perfectly in the creation of the 'other' as edward said puts it, or the untermensch we're all familiar with. If you're not saying it, it definitely seems you're implying it. And there's tons of this in Europe, e.g. a quote from Rushton's wiki: >> In 2009 Rushton spoke at the Preserving Western Civilization conference in Baltimore. It was organized by Michael H. Hart for the stated purpose of "addressing the need" to defend "America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity" from immigrants, Muslims, and African Americans.[36][37] In his speech, Rushton said that Islam was not just a cultural, but also a genetic problem. He thought the religion and issues associated with it were not just a condition of the belief system. His theory was that Arabs have an aggressive personality with relatively closed, simple minds, and were less amenable to reason.[38] The Anti-Defamation League described the conference attendees as "racist academics, conservative pundits and anti-immigrant activists".[39] As for the first point on plenty of respect for decent people, are you an immigrant minority? Well I can see you're not. (where are you from, btw?) I am. I've been cussed at in the street, spit on and told to go back to my 'own country'. I'm Dutch born, Dutch mother, jewish girlfriend, atheist, university educated, entrepreneur, but as I'm also an arab and look like one, I get 'plenty of respect'. And there's literally not a single arab I'm friends with or a relative to who hasn't had this experience (although I don't know THAT many). In fact my neighbour isn't my neighbour anymore, he was a teacher here but he and his family moved back to North-Africa after his wife was spit on years ago. As for your other points on islam, what islam? You say it as if it's a singular thing. I'm not a muslim, an atheist in fact, but for me to talk about 'islam' without any context is as ridiculous as saying we should criticize water because it's the leading cause of drowning. Without context asking if 'water' is 'good' or 'islam' is 'good' is laughably silly.
- bkirwi 12y ago
  > And why shouldn't Islam be disrespected? Is it a good religion? Is it tolerant? Is it really the religion of peace? There are many peaceful and tolerant Muslims, just as there are many peaceful and tolerant Christians. Of course, you rarely see these people in the news; but even a small amount of research will show this to be the case. > And why should honour killings and clannishness be respected? They shouldn't, of course; but I think you'll find that very few western Muslims do. You may also find that a lot of the problems stem from the fact that many people consider them stupid, aggressive, violent, murderous, and not worthy of respect.
IkmoIkmo 12y ago
>> I haven't had much contact with this immigrant minority, but from the media, I get the feeling that they are not really "respected" - their culture and heritage is demonized left and right, they are "foreigners" and "people of color". Probably, this got much worse after 9/11 and other terrorist attacks (e.g. in the UK), and was quite bad even before (e.g. in France, from what I hear). I'm part of this minority (immigrant father, look like an immigrant, arabic name) and this part is completely true. And I can say this despite having a Dutch mother, being an atheist, having plenty of economic opportunities, a jewish girlfriend and having no affiliation with islam. The way people who look like me, or that have my father's religion, are treated here in the EU, is downright nasty. It stings my heart, again, even though I have limited affiliation with my heritage that's so vilified here. If I actually identified myself with islam it'd be very easy to feel as if it's 'us vs them'. But the economic melt-down. Look, I hear what you're saying, it does affect immigrants more harshly as they're generally in a socioeconomic position that's less well equiped to deal with economic hardship. (from the lack of a professional network, culture divide to the illiteracy of many first generation immigrants). And I've experienced my fair share of economic hardship, too, like picking the leftover damaged potatoes and tomatoes from the street after marketmen close up shop at night. but I don't really see this as a deciding factor at all. The story of Casablanca slums just don't apply (watch Horses of God if you're interested!), in my experience and opinion, to Europe. It does generate a certain sentiment, a pessimism, it can take away pockets of dignity, that make a person more susceptible to a crazy imam's rhetoric, but at the end of the day Europe is a pretty brilliant place to live when you're poor. I can't imagine a better place after Scandinavia. I think it's far from a deciding factor. If the above (cultural demonization and rash foreign policies) hadn't happened, even if there was twice as much unemployment, I don't think EU youth joining ISIS would've really been a problem. That having been said, in my opinion the whole eu youth joining isis is way overblown, but that's another discussion I won't invite myself to have! I'll be happy to discuss though if you want.