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Ah ok. Well, the founding fathers did their founding after a pretty momentous revolutionary war as you may know. And the British subjects settled in America wer

by firasd 12y ago

Ah ok. Well, the founding fathers did their founding after a pretty momentous revolutionary war as you may know. And the British subjects settled in America weren't doing so badly that they had to rise up in desperation for hope or a future. They wanted political independence and self-determination (in much the same way Palestinians want today, although different factions among Palestinians have varying territorial and other desires.) I agree with you that many of the restless and unhappy masses become the actual front-line fighters in conflicts; I just disagree that providing people with financial and social stability would necessarily avoid a conflict. Sometimes people just won't stand for something.

tomp 12y ago
But wasn't the problem also the fact that US (whatever it was back then) was basically a UK colony, which meant that the UK was basically levying lots of tax and taking whatever they could back to the UK? Also, it's not like the people of the US attacked another country... they just thought that they would do better without a foreign overlord. Probably, if the UK let them go (like they would let Scotland go), there would be no war. Or am I mistaken?
- firasd 12y ago
  Yeah they were a colony. And that's sort of my point; they weren't hopeless and desperate--in fact my understanding is that the average American (not counting slaves) back then was better off than the average person in England--but they were exploited and subjugated to some extent. And they decided the final fix would be to change the whole political order of things, and to fight a revolution over their desired new order.
- mikeash 12y ago
  There was zero chance of the UK letting them go, though. Everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence (and anyone associated with them, and on into a pretty wide net) was guaranteed to be executed for treason if the revolution failed. They were getting taxed a lot, but they were still quite well off. George Washington had a huge estate. Most of the founders owned lots of land, and many of them owned lots of people. They were far from desperate, but still risked their lives. Imagine if, say, Bill Gates decided he didn't like giving the US federal government billions in taxes and decided to lead an armed insurrection to make Washington (state) an independent country.

by firasd 12y ago

tomp 12y ago

But wasn't the problem also the fact that US (whatever it was back then) was basically a UK colony, which meant that the UK was basically levying lots of tax and taking whatever they could back to the UK? Also, it's not like the people of the US attacked another country... they just thought that they would do better without a foreign overlord. Probably, if the UK let them go (like they would let Scotland go), there would be no war. Or am I mistaken?

firasd 12y ago
Yeah they were a colony. And that's sort of my point; they weren't hopeless and desperate--in fact my understanding is that the average American (not counting slaves) back then was better off than the average person in England--but they were exploited and subjugated to some extent. And they decided the final fix would be to change the whole political order of things, and to fight a revolution over their desired new order.
mikeash 12y ago
There was zero chance of the UK letting them go, though. Everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence (and anyone associated with them, and on into a pretty wide net) was guaranteed to be executed for treason if the revolution failed. They were getting taxed a lot, but they were still quite well off. George Washington had a huge estate. Most of the founders owned lots of land, and many of them owned lots of people. They were far from desperate, but still risked their lives. Imagine if, say, Bill Gates decided he didn't like giving the US federal government billions in taxes and decided to lead an armed insurrection to make Washington (state) an independent country.