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> This is new technology entering the market. Just to be clear: we're talking about a 6 year old company, and new technology that entered the market 6 years ag

> This is new technology entering the market. Just to be clear: we're talking about a 6 year old company, and new technology that entered the market 6 years ago. At this point, it's worth asking: in your opinion, how long is a company permitted to break the law after introducing new technology?

dmix 12y ago
I didn't say it was new technology at the moment? I was talking about when it entered the market and started to grow... At that time it was unclear whether or not the homeowners should have tax liability or AirBnB. And it's a global service, the tax law is different everywhere.
- rgbrenner 12y ago
  > At that time it was unclear whether or not the homeowners should have tax liability or AirBnB. And it takes 6 years to figure that out? Do you seriously believe their lawyers that incapable?
  - dmix 12y ago
    Lawyers? You mean lawmakers. And yes, it almost always does take that long unless its politically popular. Which it typically isn't popular until startups employing the new technology reach scale and become wealthy. As we're witnessing now. Same with Uber. No one cared when they were blossoming. Rational choice theory.
    - rgbrenner 12y ago
      Claiming ignorance or lack of clarity is not a fair statement, at this point in time. In early 2012, the San Francisco Tax Collector’s Office held public hearings, which AirBNB participated in and lobbied... those hearing decided that AirBnb needed to pay the tax, and AirBnb outright refused to comply with the law. It has now been 2.5 years since that hearing. And that isn't the only case.. in 2010 there was a NY case, where someone was sued and had to pay $100k+. Any claim that AirBnb is unaware of their responsibilities under the law is no longer a fair or truthful statement of the situation. Best case, they KNEW that they've been operating illegally for 2.5 years. So back to my original question: in your opinion, how long is AirBnb immune from laws for graciously introducing new technology?
      - dmix 12y ago
        I'm not sure if I'm even debating you here regarding their current legal obligations? I was refuting the OPs comment claimed they got fat off of purposeful negligence of the law which is a false claim. So yes In 2012, two years ago, did the state start caring about the business. Not the 4 years prior during growth, as the OP comment tried to paint the picture. They were a well established by 2012. Civil lawsuits in 2010 have nothing to do with tax obligations. There is significant risk of running a business without proper insurance. These are lessons and failures new businesses learn. Whether you're a homeowner or an SV startup. What happens if AirBnB becomes decentralized? The distribution of hotels rooms to homeowners is the new reality. It is now convenient that a big company like AirBnB is here to take the hit but the legal system is in no better shape to tax or better enforce property rights or deal with externalities, when hotels are no longer simply hotels. Which is why it's important to reevaluate laws instead of trying to hammer existing ones onto new markets and pretending its fixed.
        rgbrenner 12y ago
        > I was refuting the OPs comment claimed they got fat off of purposeful negligence of the law which is a false claim. It's not a false claim. Look, in July 2011, they closed a funding round that valued them at $1B. Today, it's $10B. You're saying 90% of their value is irrelevant to this debate. It's not irrelevant, and neither is what they've been doing for the past 2.5 years. It's is absolutely true that they've gotten fat off of purposely violating the law. http://www.forbes.com/sites/nicoleperlroth/2011/07/24/its-official-airbnb-joins-the-billion-dollar-valuation-club/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/nicoleperlroth/2011/07/24/its-of...
        dmix 12y ago
        Everyone here is claiming that the AirBnB is and was a hotel by definition of tax law... and this has always has been a fact. This is false. It has been very much up in the air. AirBnB operates globally in thousands of cities where they have no clear tax obligation. It still is in most places except SF. SF only made an official statement in 2012. Even in SF - at this moment - it still hasn't been revealed whether or not they have any obligation to pay backtaxes.... as would be the case if they did indeed blatantly break the law. Even the state hasn't fully confirmed the position on their past activity, yet you and the downvoting-because-I-disagree brigade knows better? I miss the old HN :( btw, your Forbes article only confirms my point that the lawmakers only cared about them after they got wealthy. They are slow moving and reactionary, period.

dmix 12y ago

I didn't say it was new technology at the moment? I was talking about when it entered the market and started to grow... At that time it was unclear whether or not the homeowners should have tax liability or AirBnB. And it's a global service, the tax law is different everywhere.

rgbrenner 12y ago
> At that time it was unclear whether or not the homeowners should have tax liability or AirBnB. And it takes 6 years to figure that out? Do you seriously believe their lawyers that incapable?
- dmix 12y ago
  Lawyers? You mean lawmakers. And yes, it almost always does take that long unless its politically popular. Which it typically isn't popular until startups employing the new technology reach scale and become wealthy. As we're witnessing now. Same with Uber. No one cared when they were blossoming. Rational choice theory.
  - rgbrenner 12y ago
    Claiming ignorance or lack of clarity is not a fair statement, at this point in time. In early 2012, the San Francisco Tax Collector’s Office held public hearings, which AirBNB participated in and lobbied... those hearing decided that AirBnb needed to pay the tax, and AirBnb outright refused to comply with the law. It has now been 2.5 years since that hearing. And that isn't the only case.. in 2010 there was a NY case, where someone was sued and had to pay $100k+. Any claim that AirBnb is unaware of their responsibilities under the law is no longer a fair or truthful statement of the situation. Best case, they KNEW that they've been operating illegally for 2.5 years. So back to my original question: in your opinion, how long is AirBnb immune from laws for graciously introducing new technology?
    - dmix 12y ago
      I'm not sure if I'm even debating you here regarding their current legal obligations? I was refuting the OPs comment claimed they got fat off of purposeful negligence of the law which is a false claim. So yes In 2012, two years ago, did the state start caring about the business. Not the 4 years prior during growth, as the OP comment tried to paint the picture. They were a well established by 2012. Civil lawsuits in 2010 have nothing to do with tax obligations. There is significant risk of running a business without proper insurance. These are lessons and failures new businesses learn. Whether you're a homeowner or an SV startup. What happens if AirBnB becomes decentralized? The distribution of hotels rooms to homeowners is the new reality. It is now convenient that a big company like AirBnB is here to take the hit but the legal system is in no better shape to tax or better enforce property rights or deal with externalities, when hotels are no longer simply hotels. Which is why it's important to reevaluate laws instead of trying to hammer existing ones onto new markets and pretending its fixed.
      - rgbrenner 12y ago
        > I was refuting the OPs comment claimed they got fat off of purposeful negligence of the law which is a false claim. It's not a false claim. Look, in July 2011, they closed a funding round that valued them at $1B. Today, it's $10B. You're saying 90% of their value is irrelevant to this debate. It's not irrelevant, and neither is what they've been doing for the past 2.5 years. It's is absolutely true that they've gotten fat off of purposely violating the law. http://www.forbes.com/sites/nicoleperlroth/2011/07/24/its-official-airbnb-joins-the-billion-dollar-valuation-club/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/nicoleperlroth/2011/07/24/its-of...
        dmix 12y ago
        Everyone here is claiming that the AirBnB is and was a hotel by definition of tax law... and this has always has been a fact. This is false. It has been very much up in the air. AirBnB operates globally in thousands of cities where they have no clear tax obligation. It still is in most places except SF. SF only made an official statement in 2012. Even in SF - at this moment - it still hasn't been revealed whether or not they have any obligation to pay backtaxes.... as would be the case if they did indeed blatantly break the law. Even the state hasn't fully confirmed the position on their past activity, yet you and the downvoting-because-I-disagree brigade knows better? I miss the old HN :( btw, your Forbes article only confirms my point that the lawmakers only cared about them after they got wealthy. They are slow moving and reactionary, period.