10 ms·

From Nothing To Something. How To Get There.

99 points by jmorin007 17y ago

edw519 17y ago
The best composition is probably one engineer whose passion lies in the pixels on the screen and another engineer whose passion is making bits fly really fast through servers. Best 2 people to do a start-up? A programmer and a business guy? No. A programmer and a designer? No. 2 programmers. Yes. Classic.
- replicatorblog 17y ago
  Why the hate for designers;) Seriously though, having someone who comes from the aesthetic/UI side is a lot more useful than the generic "MBA" type who has a big vision and just needs someone to build the site. For instance, Flickr and Typepad both had a hacker/designer founding team. One of the recent YC teams had 2 designers and only one hacker and have been doing really well. The best example is probably Apple, SJ had some technical skill, but his real art was designing the UX, but had SW to handle the technical challenges. I'm all for the coder/coder team, but a great designer is not a bad addition!
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    I think what you want is someone who can do both the interaction design and the front-end coding - they have skills in making things look pretty, but can also write enough JavaScript/Python/C++/whatever needed to interface with the backend. Someone like Eric Costello of Flickr or Glen Murphy of Google Chrome. My ideal founding team would have three members: a frontend engineer/designer, a backend engineer, and a business/marketing person. I think this is basically what Seth was saying, and I've also heard the RescueTime founders say that this is a great combination (it's what they have). I wouldn't really want to go without the business person entirely, simply because somebody has to hold the entire product vision in their head, and the engineers usually have plenty to think about anyway. The tension between "C'mon guys, we can make this better" and "Okay, let's dive in and make this better" seems to be necessary for great creative works. That was really Steve Jobs' role in Apple - as I understand it, he did basically none of the coding. It also helps to have someone take care of all the interruption-driven tasks of running a company - following up on leads, talking to the press, drumming up excitement, getting feedback from potential customers, etc.
    - movix 17y ago
      I would say that in the end, it's all about the user experience, and that unfortunately or not, comes from the design. The cleverest app, or piece of coding is useless if the user doesn't get what they want from the experience of using it. Brilliant design doesn't have to be flashy or clever, and of course, the simplest interfaces are always the best. There is a huge amount of skill and intelligence involved in taking what is a potentially complex idea or concept, and expressing to the user, not only how to use it, but also what the app is capable of, in a simple, graphical way. There's been a of of discussion on HN about the new Sequoia site. I think I'm one of the few who think it's brilliant, because it already assumes a lot about its users, and that if they're on the site, they probably have a pretty good idea already of why they're there. The site is tailored to those people, they don't need to be hand-held with descriptions and explanations. This would be completely out of place in many other instances, but the designers knew their users, and what their needs were, so built accordingly. The web is a graphical interface for information, great design is crucial. The OP made the point about a team...my point is that this has to a be a balance of skills, each member understanding their value and importance to the project, and understanding and valuing the importance of their colleagues. Teams made up of entirely one skill set will never be as productive as one with a wide range of skills.
- psyklic 17y ago
  Maybe classic around these parts, but it depends on the startup ...
vijayr 17y ago
One of the better posts at TC
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- rokhayakebe 17y ago
  At the risk of being downvoted, I disagree. Maybe this is just a good introduction to the series of posts, but for now he simply regurgitated what we already know, ie "Build something, put it out there, then iterate". What it fails to tell you is how to get that initial traction. For every 50 consumer startups that email Techcrunch/Venturebeat/Gigaom etc... one will be covered. If this does not happen, then getting that first set of beta users will be extremely time consuming (unless you resolve to less-than-ethical methods aka SPAM). Products like Meebo took off from the start. I am sure most issues they had were around hiring, scaling, and monetizing. Most startups' problem is not what to do with the traffic or how to afford more servers, larger teams. The biggest problem we have is not even building a prototype or convincing someone to partner with us. The issue is how to get users. Maybe in his next posts he will touch this subject.
  - jexe 17y ago
    Hopefully he'll get there. Anyway, it's a good place to start a series - essentially, how to start. Maybe it's not a typical symptom in the HN community as much, but in general, I really hear a lot of people working on startups from the outside in: high concept, powerpoints, spreadsheets, raising money, legal nonsense, THEN finding someone to build their idea. It's good to be reminded occasionally to just build the product when you're getting started.
  - danielrhodes 17y ago
    Getting users: the most important part of any startup that most founders like to ignore because it is one aspect they can't control. Hyper-focus, have patience and persistence, and constantly keep improving the service. There is no other way. TechCrunch only helps you for a day. But after that day is over, you are back to the same problems again.
kyro 17y ago
A good read, but the article makes it sound like Seth was some kid who hadn't the slightest idea of anything business, kept trying, and finally hit jackpot with Meebo, when in fact, his CrunchBase profile says he "worked in IBM’s mergers and acquisitions department, while also working on corporate strategy and venture capital initiatives prior to starting Meebo." That's not to invalidate his advice, but that seems like a hell of a lot of advantage to have, on top of a great founding team, when heading into a startup.
- notauser 17y ago
  He was quite self depreciating about his pre-launch role (button goes over here!) which is in my experience a universally good indicator of someone I would want to work with. (Plus 'button goes over here' type input is actually really valuable - when working on UI stuff you tend to get tunnel vision and/or implement what works with the underlying design rather than what makes sense to a user who has no idea about the structure of the data.)
- byoung2 17y ago
  Being the assistant manager at Olive Garden does not mean you can open your own restaurant. I think that experience at IBM might help in some instances, but it probably didn't translate well to the startup mentality.
  - vaksel 17y ago
    I wouldn't discount it, as completely irrelevant. It probably got him that first coverage, and helped convince the VCs over the edge to fund them.
  - skolor 17y ago
    No, it doesn't mean you can open your own restaurant, but it means you have at least an idea of how a successful restaurant is run, rather than just starting a business because you're a good cook. Its not my path (Go out, get job, learn how to do things there, start own business), but it definitely brings some advantages with it.
  - 17y ago
vaksel 17y ago
its easier to preach than actually do, you ALWAYS start thinking, "man I need more content" or "this one extra feature will REALLY make us take off." same thing goes for the servers, everyone starts out thinking that they need some server farm, just in case they hit some success. Here is a dirty little secret, don't expect overnight success, you'll have plenty of time to grow into needing that big server, but there is no point in wasting money on something you don't need.
- lucumo 17y ago
  > Here is a dirty little secret, don't expect overnight success, you'll have plenty of time to grow into needing that big server, but there is no point in wasting money on something you don't need. Definitely true. One remark though: "plenty of time" won't be entirely true. When you first need to scale up you probably don't have any kind of server monitoring set up. There's more important stuff to be done. This means that you will notice far too late that you're out of capacity. It will be hard work and it will be painful for you and your start-up.
  - vaksel 17y ago
    The best bet is to just use the cloud, like AWS. Sure it's not as fast as a dedicated server...but honestly is it really that bad? You might get 90% performance, and chances are your users won't even notice. It scales for you, and you only pay for what you use. So if your site starts out slow, you'll be paying similar costs to a shared server. If your site takes off, you'll be paying similar costs as a dedicated server. But the important thing, is that you won't have to bother guessing which will be the case for your site.
  - drusenko 17y ago
    There are many things you don't need to be focused on at the start, but monitoring is something you should set up from the very, very beginning. Knowing when you're open for business and when you're not is absolutely crucial. Plus, it's cheap -- $5/month or less.
    - 17y ago
sachinag 17y ago
"When I point out that they’re all business people, and wonder who’s going to build the product, they almost always fall back on “we’ll get a couple of undergrads to do it,” or, “we’ll outsource it.” If I hear either one of those, I know the startup’s already dead." God, ain't that the truth. It's an unrecoverable error. Learned that one the hard way.
- Slzr 17y ago
  seconded, its the kind of truth that hurts
sanj 17y ago
"I think I just really feared working for the Man." vs. "worked in IBM’s mergers and acquisitions department..." How much more of the man can you work for?
- elai 17y ago
  The federal government.
  - Derrek 17y ago
    And more specifically, the defense industry. Ugh....
- stse 17y ago
  "At some point I just said, 'screw it, I’ll get a high paying job.'" - I guess that was the job.
juvenn 17y ago
Motivated, and really pratical. Thanks!
msort 17y ago
Good read. When should founders start to incorporate a company? Can founders just release a Web application without worrying about things like incorporation?
- learnalist 17y ago
  I believe, the incorporation is a USA thing more than other parts of the world. Again with no credentials im under the impression outside of America it is easier to setup a company and just kick off a web app without an "incorporation". Maybe a budding lawyer can shed some light on the benefits of incorporating before you have anything truely worth incorporating.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
    Actually, the opposite is probably true. I have yet to hear of any country where it's easier to start a business than in the USA.
old-gregg 17y ago
From nothing to something? Are you kidding me? His entire product is just an HTML front-end to libpurple, which is 99% of his codebase. And that is FAR from "nothing" And libpurple isn't even mentioned in the article, yet a ton of space is wasted on how he kept thinking about a "next great thing". What an asshole. At least Pidgin folks openly say "we are GTK+ front-end to libpurple". Will it kill these SV types to admit building HTML front-ends to open source products? There was something very right about Zed Shaw's rant regarding open source licenses.

99 points by jmorin007 17y ago

The best composition is probably one engineer whose passion lies in the pixels on the screen and another engineer whose passion is making bits fly really fast through servers. Best 2 people to do a start-up? A programmer and a business guy? No. A programmer and a designer? No. 2 programmers. Yes. Classic.

replicatorblog 17y ago
Why the hate for designers;) Seriously though, having someone who comes from the aesthetic/UI side is a lot more useful than the generic "MBA" type who has a big vision and just needs someone to build the site. For instance, Flickr and Typepad both had a hacker/designer founding team. One of the recent YC teams had 2 designers and only one hacker and have been doing really well. The best example is probably Apple, SJ had some technical skill, but his real art was designing the UX, but had SW to handle the technical challenges. I'm all for the coder/coder team, but a great designer is not a bad addition!
- nostrademons 17y ago
  I think what you want is someone who can do both the interaction design and the front-end coding - they have skills in making things look pretty, but can also write enough JavaScript/Python/C++/whatever needed to interface with the backend. Someone like Eric Costello of Flickr or Glen Murphy of Google Chrome. My ideal founding team would have three members: a frontend engineer/designer, a backend engineer, and a business/marketing person. I think this is basically what Seth was saying, and I've also heard the RescueTime founders say that this is a great combination (it's what they have). I wouldn't really want to go without the business person entirely, simply because somebody has to hold the entire product vision in their head, and the engineers usually have plenty to think about anyway. The tension between "C'mon guys, we can make this better" and "Okay, let's dive in and make this better" seems to be necessary for great creative works. That was really Steve Jobs' role in Apple - as I understand it, he did basically none of the coding. It also helps to have someone take care of all the interruption-driven tasks of running a company - following up on leads, talking to the press, drumming up excitement, getting feedback from potential customers, etc.
  - movix 17y ago
    I would say that in the end, it's all about the user experience, and that unfortunately or not, comes from the design. The cleverest app, or piece of coding is useless if the user doesn't get what they want from the experience of using it. Brilliant design doesn't have to be flashy or clever, and of course, the simplest interfaces are always the best. There is a huge amount of skill and intelligence involved in taking what is a potentially complex idea or concept, and expressing to the user, not only how to use it, but also what the app is capable of, in a simple, graphical way. There's been a of of discussion on HN about the new Sequoia site. I think I'm one of the few who think it's brilliant, because it already assumes a lot about its users, and that if they're on the site, they probably have a pretty good idea already of why they're there. The site is tailored to those people, they don't need to be hand-held with descriptions and explanations. This would be completely out of place in many other instances, but the designers knew their users, and what their needs were, so built accordingly. The web is a graphical interface for information, great design is crucial. The OP made the point about a team...my point is that this has to a be a balance of skills, each member understanding their value and importance to the project, and understanding and valuing the importance of their colleagues. Teams made up of entirely one skill set will never be as productive as one with a wide range of skills.
psyklic 17y ago
Maybe classic around these parts, but it depends on the startup ...

vijayr 17y ago

One of the better posts at TC

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
rokhayakebe 17y ago
At the risk of being downvoted, I disagree. Maybe this is just a good introduction to the series of posts, but for now he simply regurgitated what we already know, ie "Build something, put it out there, then iterate". What it fails to tell you is how to get that initial traction. For every 50 consumer startups that email Techcrunch/Venturebeat/Gigaom etc... one will be covered. If this does not happen, then getting that first set of beta users will be extremely time consuming (unless you resolve to less-than-ethical methods aka SPAM). Products like Meebo took off from the start. I am sure most issues they had were around hiring, scaling, and monetizing. Most startups' problem is not what to do with the traffic or how to afford more servers, larger teams. The biggest problem we have is not even building a prototype or convincing someone to partner with us. The issue is how to get users. Maybe in his next posts he will touch this subject.
- jexe 17y ago
  Hopefully he'll get there. Anyway, it's a good place to start a series - essentially, how to start. Maybe it's not a typical symptom in the HN community as much, but in general, I really hear a lot of people working on startups from the outside in: high concept, powerpoints, spreadsheets, raising money, legal nonsense, THEN finding someone to build their idea. It's good to be reminded occasionally to just build the product when you're getting started.
- danielrhodes 17y ago
  Getting users: the most important part of any startup that most founders like to ignore because it is one aspect they can't control. Hyper-focus, have patience and persistence, and constantly keep improving the service. There is no other way. TechCrunch only helps you for a day. But after that day is over, you are back to the same problems again.

kyro 17y ago

A good read, but the article makes it sound like Seth was some kid who hadn't the slightest idea of anything business, kept trying, and finally hit jackpot with Meebo, when in fact, his CrunchBase profile says he "worked in IBM’s mergers and acquisitions department, while also working on corporate strategy and venture capital initiatives prior to starting Meebo." That's not to invalidate his advice, but that seems like a hell of a lot of advantage to have, on top of a great founding team, when heading into a startup.

notauser 17y ago
He was quite self depreciating about his pre-launch role (button goes over here!) which is in my experience a universally good indicator of someone I would want to work with. (Plus 'button goes over here' type input is actually really valuable - when working on UI stuff you tend to get tunnel vision and/or implement what works with the underlying design rather than what makes sense to a user who has no idea about the structure of the data.)
byoung2 17y ago
Being the assistant manager at Olive Garden does not mean you can open your own restaurant. I think that experience at IBM might help in some instances, but it probably didn't translate well to the startup mentality.
- vaksel 17y ago
  I wouldn't discount it, as completely irrelevant. It probably got him that first coverage, and helped convince the VCs over the edge to fund them.
- skolor 17y ago
  No, it doesn't mean you can open your own restaurant, but it means you have at least an idea of how a successful restaurant is run, rather than just starting a business because you're a good cook. Its not my path (Go out, get job, learn how to do things there, start own business), but it definitely brings some advantages with it.
- 17y ago

vaksel 17y ago

its easier to preach than actually do, you ALWAYS start thinking, "man I need more content" or "this one extra feature will REALLY make us take off." same thing goes for the servers, everyone starts out thinking that they need some server farm, just in case they hit some success. Here is a dirty little secret, don't expect overnight success, you'll have plenty of time to grow into needing that big server, but there is no point in wasting money on something you don't need.

lucumo 17y ago
> Here is a dirty little secret, don't expect overnight success, you'll have plenty of time to grow into needing that big server, but there is no point in wasting money on something you don't need. Definitely true. One remark though: "plenty of time" won't be entirely true. When you first need to scale up you probably don't have any kind of server monitoring set up. There's more important stuff to be done. This means that you will notice far too late that you're out of capacity. It will be hard work and it will be painful for you and your start-up.
- vaksel 17y ago
  The best bet is to just use the cloud, like AWS. Sure it's not as fast as a dedicated server...but honestly is it really that bad? You might get 90% performance, and chances are your users won't even notice. It scales for you, and you only pay for what you use. So if your site starts out slow, you'll be paying similar costs to a shared server. If your site takes off, you'll be paying similar costs as a dedicated server. But the important thing, is that you won't have to bother guessing which will be the case for your site.
- drusenko 17y ago
  There are many things you don't need to be focused on at the start, but monitoring is something you should set up from the very, very beginning. Knowing when you're open for business and when you're not is absolutely crucial. Plus, it's cheap -- $5/month or less.
  - 17y ago

sachinag 17y ago

"When I point out that they’re all business people, and wonder who’s going to build the product, they almost always fall back on “we’ll get a couple of undergrads to do it,” or, “we’ll outsource it.” If I hear either one of those, I know the startup’s already dead." God, ain't that the truth. It's an unrecoverable error. Learned that one the hard way.

Slzr 17y ago
seconded, its the kind of truth that hurts

sanj 17y ago

"I think I just really feared working for the Man." vs. "worked in IBM’s mergers and acquisitions department..." How much more of the man can you work for?

elai 17y ago
The federal government.
- Derrek 17y ago
  And more specifically, the defense industry. Ugh....
stse 17y ago
"At some point I just said, 'screw it, I’ll get a high paying job.'" - I guess that was the job.

juvenn 17y ago

Motivated, and really pratical. Thanks!

msort 17y ago

Good read. When should founders start to incorporate a company? Can founders just release a Web application without worrying about things like incorporation?

learnalist 17y ago
I believe, the incorporation is a USA thing more than other parts of the world. Again with no credentials im under the impression outside of America it is easier to setup a company and just kick off a web app without an "incorporation". Maybe a budding lawyer can shed some light on the benefits of incorporating before you have anything truely worth incorporating.
- HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
  Actually, the opposite is probably true. I have yet to hear of any country where it's easier to start a business than in the USA.

old-gregg 17y ago

From nothing to something? Are you kidding me? His entire product is just an HTML front-end to libpurple, which is 99% of his codebase. And that is FAR from "nothing" And libpurple isn't even mentioned in the article, yet a ton of space is wasted on how he kept thinking about a "next great thing". What an asshole. At least Pidgin folks openly say "we are GTK+ front-end to libpurple". Will it kill these SV types to admit building HTML front-ends to open source products? There was something very right about Zed Shaw's rant regarding open source licenses.