5 ms·

I've asked this before to no avail, but what can the NSA possibly do if Apple refuses? Fine them? Sure, they have billions. They can't arrest the company... I

by MrJagil 12y ago

I've asked this before to no avail, but what can the NSA possibly do if Apple refuses? Fine them? Sure, they have billions. They can't arrest the company... Is Cook going to jail? What is the actual threat here? You could argue that Apple has more power than many governments.

crazypyro 12y ago
Fine them. Fine them more after fining them. Arrest executives. The powers of contempt of court are rather wide.
- wiredfool 12y ago
  That would make SEC filings a disclosure of surveillance.
duaneb 12y ago
The judicial powers of 'contempt of court' are some of the most powerful IN government. I have no doubt they can force Apple.
huhtenberg 12y ago
Putting pressure on individuals is the simplest, most logical and very effective option. So, yes, Cook getting charged with insider trading or tax evasion would fit right in.
lukifer 12y ago
They can certainly make life difficult for Apple and its executives; see what happened to Phil Nacchio of Qwest when he pushed back against surveillance requests. http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25845407/unrepentant-joe-nacchio-blames-feds-qwests-financial-collapse http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25845407/unrepentant-j...
- djur 12y ago
  Is there any evidence for Nacchio's claims other than his say-so?
  - noblethrasher 12y ago
    Our own 'tptacek has commented on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8021904 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8021904
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    Post-Snowden, the burden of proof is on the government.
  - tedunangst 12y ago
    He's also changed his tune some over time. Now it's all about users rights and privacy, but way back when the big concern was that the FCC might drop a giant fine on them. Less about protecting customers, more about protecting the bottom line by not getting caught.
vonklaus 12y ago
That is the problem. No one knows what they can do. The conpany will certainly have no recourse.
sosborn 12y ago
>You could argue that Apple has more power than many governments. You underestimate the power of governments.
firemanx 12y ago
They can absolutely fine them, and if Yahoo's experience is any indication, fines for this kind of stuff are beyond what billions will cover: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/09/15/you-think-youve-got-bills-government-could-have-fined-yahoo-trillions-of-dollars/?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/09/15... How can you hope to defeat stuff like this in court if you can't survive the fines building up while you're waiting to see the process through?
SEJeff 12y ago
As the nuclear option, the USG could simply force them to stop doing business in the US. That would effectively put them out of business and would never happen.
- xamolxix 12y ago
  I am sure that people in other countries buy Apple products.
  - SEJeff 12y ago
    Yes but all of their designers, developers, etc, are all in the US. Note that all Apple stuff says, "Designed in California". If all of your non-manufacturing is shut down, the company is shut down. I think you failed to see this point.
    - xamolxix 12y ago
      You are right on both points. They do say that (I see now that my laptop says "designed by Apple in California") and yes, I did not imagine that all of their engineers are in the US. I would still guess that they would try to move to another country rather than shutting down. I admit that it would be hard if not impossible.
      - SEJeff 12y ago
        Upvoted for humility, it is a rare trait :)
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
I know of at least one instance where executives of a medical device company tried to ignore the FDA, and said executives got marched out the door in handcuffs. If the FDA can do that, I'm pretty sure the NSA can...
aetherson 12y ago
It turns out you can fine people arbitrary amounts of money. There is no amount of money that Apple can have that the government can't think of a bigger number than.
rtkwe 12y ago
The can request any fine amount they want. The Yahoo fine schedule would have been billions within a couple months iirc because it included a doubling clause every few weeks that the order wasn't complied with.

by MrJagil 12y ago

crazypyro 12y ago

Fine them. Fine them more after fining them. Arrest executives. The powers of contempt of court are rather wide.

wiredfool 12y ago
That would make SEC filings a disclosure of surveillance.

duaneb 12y ago

The judicial powers of 'contempt of court' are some of the most powerful IN government. I have no doubt they can force Apple.

huhtenberg 12y ago

Putting pressure on individuals is the simplest, most logical and very effective option. So, yes, Cook getting charged with insider trading or tax evasion would fit right in.

lukifer 12y ago

They can certainly make life difficult for Apple and its executives; see what happened to Phil Nacchio of Qwest when he pushed back against surveillance requests. http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25845407/unrepentant-joe-nacchio-blames-feds-qwests-financial-collapse http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25845407/unrepentant-j...

djur 12y ago
Is there any evidence for Nacchio's claims other than his say-so?
- noblethrasher 12y ago
  Our own 'tptacek has commented on this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8021904 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8021904
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  Post-Snowden, the burden of proof is on the government.
- tedunangst 12y ago
  He's also changed his tune some over time. Now it's all about users rights and privacy, but way back when the big concern was that the FCC might drop a giant fine on them. Less about protecting customers, more about protecting the bottom line by not getting caught.

vonklaus 12y ago

That is the problem. No one knows what they can do. The conpany will certainly have no recourse.

sosborn 12y ago

>You could argue that Apple has more power than many governments. You underestimate the power of governments.

firemanx 12y ago

They can absolutely fine them, and if Yahoo's experience is any indication, fines for this kind of stuff are beyond what billions will cover: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/09/15/you-think-youve-got-bills-government-could-have-fined-yahoo-trillions-of-dollars/?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/09/15... How can you hope to defeat stuff like this in court if you can't survive the fines building up while you're waiting to see the process through?

SEJeff 12y ago

As the nuclear option, the USG could simply force them to stop doing business in the US. That would effectively put them out of business and would never happen.

xamolxix 12y ago
I am sure that people in other countries buy Apple products.
- SEJeff 12y ago
  Yes but all of their designers, developers, etc, are all in the US. Note that all Apple stuff says, "Designed in California". If all of your non-manufacturing is shut down, the company is shut down. I think you failed to see this point.
  - xamolxix 12y ago
    You are right on both points. They do say that (I see now that my laptop says "designed by Apple in California") and yes, I did not imagine that all of their engineers are in the US. I would still guess that they would try to move to another country rather than shutting down. I admit that it would be hard if not impossible.
    - SEJeff 12y ago
      Upvoted for humility, it is a rare trait :)

AnimalMuppet 12y ago

I know of at least one instance where executives of a medical device company tried to ignore the FDA, and said executives got marched out the door in handcuffs. If the FDA can do that, I'm pretty sure the NSA can...

aetherson 12y ago

It turns out you can fine people arbitrary amounts of money. There is no amount of money that Apple can have that the government can't think of a bigger number than.

rtkwe 12y ago

The can request any fine amount they want. The Yahoo fine schedule would have been billions within a couple months iirc because it included a doubling clause every few weeks that the order wasn't complied with.