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> I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: [...] You do know that women are people, right? Like, half the people, 3.5 billion women. L

by enoch_r 12y ago

> I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: [...] You do know that women are people, right? Like, half the people, 3.5 billion women. Let's examine two claims: 1. "Group A is genetically predisposed to different behavior than Group B, to which I belong." 2. "Group A is culturally predisposed to different behavior than Group B, to which I belong." You claim that making statement (1) indicates that I disbelieve in the personhood of people in Group A. I assume that you do not believe the same about statement (2)--that is, it's possible for me to notice that men are more likely to be murderers without claiming that women aren't people, as long as I accept "culture" as the only explanation for the difference. I claim that both statements (1) and (2) are compatible with a belief in personhood of people in Group A. And this is much firmer ground, ideologically speaking. If presented with strong evidence of genetic differences between two groups, I am not forced to either deny the evidence or give up and accept that some groups aren't people anymore. I can simply say "even if the two groups are genetically different, this doesn't change a thing: personhood is not determined by someone's genetic similarity to me, people deserve respect, and prejudice is wrong even if it is somewhat predictive." Finally, in a situation where genetics clearly affect behavior or personality--for example, Asperger Syndrome--I don't need to shift around my values to claim that yes, autistic people are still people.

deleted 12y ago
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daveloyall 12y ago
I think I more or less understand what you are getting at. You're saying that my question was silly because it's not necessary to think that women aren't people in order to think that they ARE different than men. Okay. As I've indicated in a few places so far, I don't think I expressed my question as I'd intended to. enoch_r, you seem like a methodical sort of person, maybe you can help me think this through. I've jotted down some notes. 1. Basically I want to address internet misogynists, including but not limited to those that don't believe they are one. (I would like to exclude those who believe they are wrong and do it anyway. That's a whole 'nother conversation that might as well be had over a bottle.) 2. I believe that being a person is basically an excuse to get away with a lot of stuff, and an entitlement to receive the benefit of the doubt a lot. 3. I believe that one effective way to communicate is to present your own point in unfavorable terms. It's polite, saves a ton of time, and reminds yourself to avoid being defensive. Sometimes people even help you improve your point! 4. I believe that point 2 is true, most people believe it, and everybody benefits from it, and you're usually not aware that you're benefiting from it. But most people probably phrase it in more favorable terms. "The Golden Rule" is pretty catchy. 5. There's a comment here which states: > I don't think you can find a lot of sane individuals who believe women aren't humans. ...I believe that it's tragically easy to find otherwise sane individuals who don't really, in their heart of hearts, in their innermost thoughts, believe that women are people in the same way that they believe that they themselves are people. I can't imagine that misogyny would be so common otherwise... 6. To the group described in 1., with 5. in mind: You know they are. Knock it off!

by enoch_r 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

daveloyall 12y ago

I think I more or less understand what you are getting at. You're saying that my question was silly because it's not necessary to think that women aren't people in order to think that they ARE different than men. Okay. As I've indicated in a few places so far, I don't think I expressed my question as I'd intended to. enoch_r, you seem like a methodical sort of person, maybe you can help me think this through. I've jotted down some notes. 1. Basically I want to address internet misogynists, including but not limited to those that don't believe they are one. (I would like to exclude those who believe they are wrong and do it anyway. That's a whole 'nother conversation that might as well be had over a bottle.) 2. I believe that being a person is basically an excuse to get away with a lot of stuff, and an entitlement to receive the benefit of the doubt a lot. 3. I believe that one effective way to communicate is to present your own point in unfavorable terms. It's polite, saves a ton of time, and reminds yourself to avoid being defensive. Sometimes people even help you improve your point! 4. I believe that point 2 is true, most people believe it, and everybody benefits from it, and you're usually not aware that you're benefiting from it. But most people probably phrase it in more favorable terms. "The Golden Rule" is pretty catchy. 5. There's a comment here which states: > I don't think you can find a lot of sane individuals who believe women aren't humans. ...I believe that it's tragically easy to find otherwise sane individuals who don't really, in their heart of hearts, in their innermost thoughts, believe that women are people in the same way that they believe that they themselves are people. I can't imagine that misogyny would be so common otherwise... 6. To the group described in 1., with 5. in mind: You know they are. Knock it off!