7 ms·

Correct me if I am wrong, I am no expert on this matter, but it seems like prisoners get stuck in a loop - Make one mistake, you are in prison. Once you are tag

Correct me if I am wrong, I am no expert on this matter, but it seems like prisoners get stuck in a loop - Make one mistake, you are in prison. Once you are tagged a prisoner, you rarely get any jobs outside. When you are in prison you get caught up in the whole gang thing and your best friends are now other criminals/gang members. What is being done to help prisoners rehabilitate and break out of this loop?

nacs 12y ago
With the privatized prison system in the US, it's more commercially viable to have people stay in that loop than not. I'm not sure that there is any incentive to help people out of that loop with so much profit for everyone in the chain (police departments, lawyers, judges and most of all, the private company that runs the prison). The only net loss in this loop are the taxpayers who pay for all of it.
- swartkrans 12y ago
  Everything you have said is false. Private prisons are not colluding to keep prisoners in prison or lobbying the state or doing any kind of action to increase the number of people that become imprisoned nor increase their length of stay. There is no evidence for anything you have claimed, you simply use "privatized" as if it were a dirty word and we should knowingly nod our heads in assent. > I'm not sure The way to resolve an information need is to engage in an objective search of facts, not speculate endlessly and make unsubstantiated claims of criminal behavior of others without some kind of evidence to base it on. If you want people to spend less time in prison, you'll want the laws changed because that's where all this come from. Some of the laws in California are the result of ballots.
  - knieveltech 12y ago
    "Private prisons are not colluding to keep prisoners in prison or lobbying the state or doing any kind of action to increase the number of people that become imprisoned nor increase their length of stay." You sure about that? http://www.dailypaul.com/312217/pennsylvania-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-prison-for-selling-teens-to-prisons http://www.dailypaul.com/312217/pennsylvania-judge-sentenced...
    - ars 12y ago
      If that was your best link, then it kinda proves his point and not yours.
      - knieveltech 12y ago
        A PA judge was sentenced to 28 years for getting paid to put children behind bars and you're bitching about me picking the first link to an article on the subject I found from a quick google search?
        ars 12y ago
        It's a terrible link. It shows an outlier, not the normal situation. If that's the best you can do then you have proved his point, not yours.
        knieveltech 12y ago
        He said "private prisons are not colluding" I produce a link to a case that very clearly demonstrates collusion. You claim this proves there is no collusion. Yeah, we're done here.
        ars 12y ago
        Yes we are done because you can not seem to distinguish the singular and the plural.
    - smutticus 12y ago
      Here is a bit more info on Ciavarella. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/books/review/kids-for-cash-and-the-injustice-system.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/books/review/kids-for-cash... If I read the parent comment you seem to be saying that legal lobbying is the problem. However, the Ciavarella story concerns illegal corruption. I'm not a fan of the American prison system, mainly because it promotes forced labour, or slavery. The 13tm amendment explicitly contains an exemption for prison labour, something which has historically been abused in America. Quick general overview of prison labor: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor-and-taxpayer-dollars/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor... More detailed account of prison labor in Nevada regarding casinos and construction. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ The slave market: http://www.unicor.gov/ http://www.unicor.gov/ You can even get slave labor to operate your call center: http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/ http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - gohrt 12y ago
    http://www.salon.com/2014/04/15/america_on_lockdown_why_the_private_prison_industry_is_exploding_partner/ http://www.salon.com/2014/04/15/america_on_lockdown_why_the_... "Arizona is one of four states (along with Virginia, Oklahoma and Louisiana) in which state governments are bound to contracts guaranteeing a 95%-100% occupancy in facilities leased by private prisons."
- dustcoin 12y ago
  It is misleading to refer to the US prison system as privatized, when the percentage of the total inmates that are in private prisons is only around 3% [1]. Privatized prisons do create a huge moral hazard, but currently the pro-prison groups with the biggest scope and influence are probably police/guard unions [2] and the "tough on crime" crowd. [1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289 http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-unit... [2] http://www.economist.com/node/15580530 http://www.economist.com/node/15580530
  - joesmo 12y ago
    Those two groups still profit from prisons, regardless of whether the prisons themselves are privatized. Perhaps it's best to speak of prison profits and interests which exist in every prison and lead to the same problems as privatized prisons. Not to mention other profiting industries like the phone company who handles all the collect calls, equipment manufacturers, etc. Bottom line is, it pays to send and keep people in prison regardless if the prisons themselves are privatized.
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
      So the phone companies are in on it too? Maybe the problem is people commit crimes? Most crimes go unsolved. How many crimes happen before they are actually caught.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - Joeri 12y ago
        So, comparing US incarceration stats with other countries, would you then say the average US citizen is more likely to commit crime than other nationalities?
        watwut 12y ago
        Crime rates are about the same. Sentences in US are way higher then elsewhere.
- rayiner 12y ago
  The percentage of private prisoners is single digits. The policies that lead to high incarceration rates today, namely long drug sentences and three strikes laws, were promulgated in the 1980's and early 1990's, when the industry was essentially nonexistent.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Are drugs as big a component of incarceration rates as the C.W. suggests? The overwhelming majority of IL inmates were sentenced for property crimes (which in the uniform crime classification do not include drug crimes of any sort). Certainly the C.W. on the impact of marijuana legalization isn't accurate; cannabis accounts for a tiny fraction of all incarcerations (significantly less than 1%). I checked a few months back, and a plurality of Cook County incarcerations were due to domestic violence. Three strike laws and Kafka-esque probation policies could definitely be a big part of the problem. (N.B.: I'm a strong supporter of cannabis legalization, and of decriminalization of all but a few of the rest of the recreational drugs).
    - Spooky23 12y ago
      Drug convictions are 20% of the national prison population. That said, you can link many of the other crimes to the drug trade or drug abuse. Cannabis to drug dealers is like ground beef to your butcher -- it's often the base of the business. Harder drugs attract more profit and police attention.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Where are you getting the number 20% from?
        Spooky23 12y ago
        From a summary of federal survey data: http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004339 http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0... Note than many cannabis associated crimes are misdemeanors that don't call for jail time. In a "tough" state like New York, possession of very small quantities of cocaine or heroin often result in felony conviction. But at the same time, drug distributors move a lot of weed (hence the ground beef analogy).
- grkvlt 12y ago
  Are you actually insane enough to believe that the (tiny number, 3% quoted below) of privately run prisons are managed by companies who are somehow colluding to ensure that the prisoners all re-offend once they finish their sentences? Because there isn't enough crime to keep them in profit currently?
  - tehmaco 12y ago
    I doubt the companies running the prisons are actively doing anything to 'make' prisoners recommit crimes after they leave. They can just not spend more than legally required to house, educate, care, and support them though...
wwweston 12y ago
Not to mention the gangs that profit or get their own employment from keeping prisoners in this loop...
aaronbrethorst 12y ago
Spot on, and not very much. For instance, only 32% of inmates have a high school education or higher. Getting a job with both a prison record and almost no education is nearly impossible. What option do a lot of former inmates have that won't lead to recidivism? http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf
InclinedPlane 12y ago
Almost nothing is being done. In the US the model of how our criminal justice system handles the guilty is one of revenge, retribution, and punishment, not of rehabilitation. This works about as well as you'd imagine given that most inmates only spend a few years in prison.
erehweb 12y ago
San Francisco has recently passed the Fair Chance ordinance - http://sfgsa.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=12136 http://sfgsa.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=12136 - a step towards limiting disclosure of previous convictions.
thatswrong0 12y ago
In the U.S.? Not much. Some, such as Loïc Wacquant, don't really see a distinction between being in prison and not for some people: > The 'hyperghetto' constitutes the fourth stage in the development of 'peculiar institutions', following (sequentially) slavery, Jim Crow, and the early ghettos. According to him, the ghetto and the prison are for all practical purposes indistinguishable, reinforcing each other to ensure the exclusion of African-Americans from general society, with governmental encouragement. There are some attempts at what is called 'restorative justice' in certain situations in certain places, but the idea of prison as being rehabilitative is not on the mind of the public.
- gadders 12y ago
  For those that like anthropology and boxing, this is a good read by Loic Wacquant: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Body_Soul.html?id=WFWY8vx4W4EC&redir_esc=y http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Body_Soul.html?id=WFWY... He joins a boxing gym on the south side of Chicago and as well as learning to box, "studies" his fellow gym-goers.
  - ritchiea 12y ago
    I second the recommendation. That book is fantastic
incision 12y ago
>'What is being done to help prisoners rehabilitate and break out of this loop?' Not much that I'm aware of. Being "tough on crime" is still pretty popular depending on political affiliation, Joe "Concentration Camp" Arpaio is still a sheriff and GEO is up 15% YTD [1]. However, there's been a fair amount of recent coverage around stepping back from some of the policies that got us here [2] so there's reason to be hopeful. 1: https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AGEO&ei=5BgaVMjANtOQ8AbClIDoDw https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AGEO&ei=5BgaVMjANtOQ8... 2: http://www.vox.com/2014/9/12/6139819/bill-clinton-violent-crime-bill-mass-incarceration-racism-war-on-drugs http://www.vox.com/2014/9/12/6139819/bill-clinton-violent-cr...
stevewepay 12y ago
This is what happened to someone I know. He made a single mistake, hanging around with the wrong crowd, and then even though he was trying to change his life, he kept getting screwed over by "the system". There were lots of issues related to going to halfway houses or going to jail. He got sick and missed an appointment with a parole officer, which caused him to lose his job, which caused him to be thrown back in jail. He was trying his best to follow the rules, but after losing his temper and threatening to attack someone who had been bothering his father, he eventually ended up getting thrown out of the country (he lost his permanent resident). Obviously he made a few bad choices, but if someone is making a concerted effort to change his life, it feels like they should be afforded more of a chance to succeed.
wavefunction 12y ago
Not sure about other states but there are small efforts to rehabilitate some of the inmates in Colorado. The programs are unfortunately small but quite successful. I think there are many in prison who could stay out if they just had something to look forward to on the outside. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/06/how-dairy-milked-prisoners-ends-up-on-whole-foods-shelves/372937/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/06/how-dair... https://www.coloradoci.com/serviceproviders/puppy/index.html?g=1 https://www.coloradoci.com/serviceproviders/puppy/index.html... The connection with another living creature that they're responsible for seems to do these guys a world of good beyond anything else we can offer them.
- fillskills 12y ago
  After reading the links, seems like they are paid very little (60 cents/day). Also, I feel training them to get higher level jobs could be more beneficial. e.g. Freelance PM/Designer/Dev could earn a lot more while working remotely with little background checks.
  - eru 12y ago
    Or just basic literacy and numeracy for some.
gohrt 12y ago
Recidivism is literally in the private prison companies' business plans, as pitched to investors. https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=last+week+tonight+prison&tbm=vid https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=last+week+tonight+prison&tbm...
- fillskills 12y ago
  Wow, that is just sad
- Reentry 12y ago
  @gohrt: Can you provide a reference or cite of this claim?

nacs 12y ago

With the privatized prison system in the US, it's more commercially viable to have people stay in that loop than not. I'm not sure that there is any incentive to help people out of that loop with so much profit for everyone in the chain (police departments, lawyers, judges and most of all, the private company that runs the prison). The only net loss in this loop are the taxpayers who pay for all of it.

swartkrans 12y ago
Everything you have said is false. Private prisons are not colluding to keep prisoners in prison or lobbying the state or doing any kind of action to increase the number of people that become imprisoned nor increase their length of stay. There is no evidence for anything you have claimed, you simply use "privatized" as if it were a dirty word and we should knowingly nod our heads in assent. > I'm not sure The way to resolve an information need is to engage in an objective search of facts, not speculate endlessly and make unsubstantiated claims of criminal behavior of others without some kind of evidence to base it on. If you want people to spend less time in prison, you'll want the laws changed because that's where all this come from. Some of the laws in California are the result of ballots.
- knieveltech 12y ago
  "Private prisons are not colluding to keep prisoners in prison or lobbying the state or doing any kind of action to increase the number of people that become imprisoned nor increase their length of stay." You sure about that? http://www.dailypaul.com/312217/pennsylvania-judge-sentenced-to-28-years-in-prison-for-selling-teens-to-prisons http://www.dailypaul.com/312217/pennsylvania-judge-sentenced...
  - ars 12y ago
    If that was your best link, then it kinda proves his point and not yours.
    - knieveltech 12y ago
      A PA judge was sentenced to 28 years for getting paid to put children behind bars and you're bitching about me picking the first link to an article on the subject I found from a quick google search?
      - ars 12y ago
        It's a terrible link. It shows an outlier, not the normal situation. If that's the best you can do then you have proved his point, not yours.
        knieveltech 12y ago
        He said "private prisons are not colluding" I produce a link to a case that very clearly demonstrates collusion. You claim this proves there is no collusion. Yeah, we're done here.
        ars 12y ago
        Yes we are done because you can not seem to distinguish the singular and the plural.
  - smutticus 12y ago
    Here is a bit more info on Ciavarella. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/books/review/kids-for-cash-and-the-injustice-system.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/books/review/kids-for-cash... If I read the parent comment you seem to be saying that legal lobbying is the problem. However, the Ciavarella story concerns illegal corruption. I'm not a fan of the American prison system, mainly because it promotes forced labour, or slavery. The 13tm amendment explicitly contains an exemption for prison labour, something which has historically been abused in America. Quick general overview of prison labor: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor-and-taxpayer-dollars/ http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/04/prison-labor... More detailed account of prison labor in Nevada regarding casinos and construction. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ The slave market: http://www.unicor.gov/ http://www.unicor.gov/ You can even get slave labor to operate your call center: http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/ http://www.unicor.gov/services/contact_helpdesk/
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- gohrt 12y ago
  http://www.salon.com/2014/04/15/america_on_lockdown_why_the_private_prison_industry_is_exploding_partner/ http://www.salon.com/2014/04/15/america_on_lockdown_why_the_... "Arizona is one of four states (along with Virginia, Oklahoma and Louisiana) in which state governments are bound to contracts guaranteeing a 95%-100% occupancy in facilities leased by private prisons."
dustcoin 12y ago
It is misleading to refer to the US prison system as privatized, when the percentage of the total inmates that are in private prisons is only around 3% [1]. Privatized prisons do create a huge moral hazard, but currently the pro-prison groups with the biggest scope and influence are probably police/guard unions [2] and the "tough on crime" crowd. [1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289 http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-unit... [2] http://www.economist.com/node/15580530 http://www.economist.com/node/15580530
- joesmo 12y ago
  Those two groups still profit from prisons, regardless of whether the prisons themselves are privatized. Perhaps it's best to speak of prison profits and interests which exist in every prison and lead to the same problems as privatized prisons. Not to mention other profiting industries like the phone company who handles all the collect calls, equipment manufacturers, etc. Bottom line is, it pays to send and keep people in prison regardless if the prisons themselves are privatized.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    So the phone companies are in on it too? Maybe the problem is people commit crimes? Most crimes go unsolved. How many crimes happen before they are actually caught.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - Joeri 12y ago
      So, comparing US incarceration stats with other countries, would you then say the average US citizen is more likely to commit crime than other nationalities?
      - watwut 12y ago
        Crime rates are about the same. Sentences in US are way higher then elsewhere.
rayiner 12y ago
The percentage of private prisoners is single digits. The policies that lead to high incarceration rates today, namely long drug sentences and three strikes laws, were promulgated in the 1980's and early 1990's, when the industry was essentially nonexistent.
- tptacek 12y ago
  Are drugs as big a component of incarceration rates as the C.W. suggests? The overwhelming majority of IL inmates were sentenced for property crimes (which in the uniform crime classification do not include drug crimes of any sort). Certainly the C.W. on the impact of marijuana legalization isn't accurate; cannabis accounts for a tiny fraction of all incarcerations (significantly less than 1%). I checked a few months back, and a plurality of Cook County incarcerations were due to domestic violence. Three strike laws and Kafka-esque probation policies could definitely be a big part of the problem. (N.B.: I'm a strong supporter of cannabis legalization, and of decriminalization of all but a few of the rest of the recreational drugs).
  - Spooky23 12y ago
    Drug convictions are 20% of the national prison population. That said, you can link many of the other crimes to the drug trade or drug abuse. Cannabis to drug dealers is like ground beef to your butcher -- it's often the base of the business. Harder drugs attract more profit and police attention.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Where are you getting the number 20% from?
      - Spooky23 12y ago
        From a summary of federal survey data: http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004339 http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=0... Note than many cannabis associated crimes are misdemeanors that don't call for jail time. In a "tough" state like New York, possession of very small quantities of cocaine or heroin often result in felony conviction. But at the same time, drug distributors move a lot of weed (hence the ground beef analogy).
grkvlt 12y ago
Are you actually insane enough to believe that the (tiny number, 3% quoted below) of privately run prisons are managed by companies who are somehow colluding to ensure that the prisoners all re-offend once they finish their sentences? Because there isn't enough crime to keep them in profit currently?
- tehmaco 12y ago
  I doubt the companies running the prisons are actively doing anything to 'make' prisoners recommit crimes after they leave. They can just not spend more than legally required to house, educate, care, and support them though...

wwweston 12y ago

Not to mention the gangs that profit or get their own employment from keeping prisoners in this loop...

aaronbrethorst 12y ago

Spot on, and not very much. For instance, only 32% of inmates have a high school education or higher. Getting a job with both a prison record and almost no education is nearly impossible. What option do a lot of former inmates have that won't lead to recidivism? http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf

InclinedPlane 12y ago

Almost nothing is being done. In the US the model of how our criminal justice system handles the guilty is one of revenge, retribution, and punishment, not of rehabilitation. This works about as well as you'd imagine given that most inmates only spend a few years in prison.

erehweb 12y ago

San Francisco has recently passed the Fair Chance ordinance - http://sfgsa.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=12136 http://sfgsa.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=12136 - a step towards limiting disclosure of previous convictions.

thatswrong0 12y ago

In the U.S.? Not much. Some, such as Loïc Wacquant, don't really see a distinction between being in prison and not for some people: > The 'hyperghetto' constitutes the fourth stage in the development of 'peculiar institutions', following (sequentially) slavery, Jim Crow, and the early ghettos. According to him, the ghetto and the prison are for all practical purposes indistinguishable, reinforcing each other to ensure the exclusion of African-Americans from general society, with governmental encouragement. There are some attempts at what is called 'restorative justice' in certain situations in certain places, but the idea of prison as being rehabilitative is not on the mind of the public.

gadders 12y ago
For those that like anthropology and boxing, this is a good read by Loic Wacquant: http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Body_Soul.html?id=WFWY8vx4W4EC&redir_esc=y http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Body_Soul.html?id=WFWY... He joins a boxing gym on the south side of Chicago and as well as learning to box, "studies" his fellow gym-goers.
- ritchiea 12y ago
  I second the recommendation. That book is fantastic

incision 12y ago

>'What is being done to help prisoners rehabilitate and break out of this loop?' Not much that I'm aware of. Being "tough on crime" is still pretty popular depending on political affiliation, Joe "Concentration Camp" Arpaio is still a sheriff and GEO is up 15% YTD [1]. However, there's been a fair amount of recent coverage around stepping back from some of the policies that got us here [2] so there's reason to be hopeful. 1: https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AGEO&ei=5BgaVMjANtOQ8AbClIDoDw https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AGEO&ei=5BgaVMjANtOQ8... 2: http://www.vox.com/2014/9/12/6139819/bill-clinton-violent-crime-bill-mass-incarceration-racism-war-on-drugs http://www.vox.com/2014/9/12/6139819/bill-clinton-violent-cr...

stevewepay 12y ago

This is what happened to someone I know. He made a single mistake, hanging around with the wrong crowd, and then even though he was trying to change his life, he kept getting screwed over by "the system". There were lots of issues related to going to halfway houses or going to jail. He got sick and missed an appointment with a parole officer, which caused him to lose his job, which caused him to be thrown back in jail. He was trying his best to follow the rules, but after losing his temper and threatening to attack someone who had been bothering his father, he eventually ended up getting thrown out of the country (he lost his permanent resident). Obviously he made a few bad choices, but if someone is making a concerted effort to change his life, it feels like they should be afforded more of a chance to succeed.

wavefunction 12y ago

Not sure about other states but there are small efforts to rehabilitate some of the inmates in Colorado. The programs are unfortunately small but quite successful. I think there are many in prison who could stay out if they just had something to look forward to on the outside. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/06/how-dairy-milked-prisoners-ends-up-on-whole-foods-shelves/372937/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/06/how-dair... https://www.coloradoci.com/serviceproviders/puppy/index.html?g=1 https://www.coloradoci.com/serviceproviders/puppy/index.html... The connection with another living creature that they're responsible for seems to do these guys a world of good beyond anything else we can offer them.

fillskills 12y ago
After reading the links, seems like they are paid very little (60 cents/day). Also, I feel training them to get higher level jobs could be more beneficial. e.g. Freelance PM/Designer/Dev could earn a lot more while working remotely with little background checks.
- eru 12y ago
  Or just basic literacy and numeracy for some.

gohrt 12y ago

Recidivism is literally in the private prison companies' business plans, as pitched to investors. https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=last+week+tonight+prison&tbm=vid https://www.google.com/webhp?#q=last+week+tonight+prison&tbm...

fillskills 12y ago
Wow, that is just sad
Reentry 12y ago
@gohrt: Can you provide a reference or cite of this claim?