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When the government obstructs the market in egregious ways, it is called corruption. When the people circumvent it, it is called the black market and it is ofte

When the government obstructs the market in egregious ways, it is called corruption. When the people circumvent it, it is called the black market and it is often the most important market when the government is corrupt or incompetent.

deleted 17y ago
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foldr 17y ago
It's a bit naive to suggest that corruption is only ever caused by governments, and that black markets don't ever involve corruption.
- anamax 17y ago
  The claim isn't that corruption is caused by govts, it's that govts make corruption inevitable. Corruption requires a govt from which to extract special privs via illicit means. (Unless, of course, you're referring to moral corruption.) It isn't corruption to dump sewage into the drinking water supply if there's no govt restriction on said dumping that you evade through "connections". (Yes, it's wrong to do so even if there's no rule against it, but corruption is the evasion, not the act itself.) Of course, black markets often involve corruption because "black market" is, by definition, illegal, which requires a govt. There is a form of corruption involving companies (such as bribing someone to get hired) but they don't affect other people.
  - foldr 17y ago
    >The claim isn't that corruption is caused by govts, it's that govts make corruption inevitable. They also enforce laws preventing it. >There is a form of corruption involving companies (such as bribing someone to get hired) but they don't affect other people. Of course they affect other people, what do you mean? There are all kinds of harmful corrupt practices not involving governments.
    - anamax 17y ago
      > They also enforce laws preventing it. All govts selectively enforce laws. The "bad" cases get called corruption. > Of course they affect other people, what do you mean? Exactly what I wrote. If I don't do biz with a company, whether or not it follows its rules doesn't matter to me at all. In fact, I can even avoid a company that obeys all of its rules. One can almost always avoid a company. It's very hard to avoid a govt. > There are all kinds of harmful corrupt practices not involving governments. How about three examples?
      - foldr 17y ago
        >All govts selectively enforce laws. The "bad" cases get called corruption. Agreed, but I don't see what this has to do with our discussion. Selective enforcement of laws by a government is certainly one form of corruption, but I see no reason to define the word "corruption" so that nothing else counts. If you prefer, we can talk about "schmorruption", and reserve the term "corruption" for cases involving governments, if the definition of this particular word is so important to you. >. If I don't do biz with a company, whether or not it follows its rules doesn't matter to me at all That's just false. Ever heard the word "externality"? If a company has corrupt hiring practices, for example, that's going to adversely affect the people who would have been employed by that company if it had a fair hiring process. And in any case, it's not always so easy for consumers to avoid doing business with a company (try avoiding business with your local electric company). >How about three examples? Nepotism, price fixing and protection rackets.
        anamax 17y ago
        >>All govts selectively enforce laws. The "bad" cases get called corruption. >Agreed, but I don't see what this has to do with our discussion. The relevance is that you charged in arguing that govts weren't all that relevant to corruption, your best argument being that they "enforce laws". I merely pointed out that how they enforce laws is where most corruption occurs. > That's just false. Ever heard the word "externality"? Yes, I have, and it has nothing to do with biz-only corruption. >>How about three examples? [of biz-only corruption that affect other people unwillingly] > Nepotism, price fixing and protection rackets. You seem to think that every bad thing that a company can do is corruption. It isn't. You're not owed a job at a given company, so nepotism isn't interfering with something that you're entitled to. Price fixing and protection rackets aren't even (necessarily) violations of a company's rules (which is a necessary condition for corruption).

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

foldr 17y ago

It's a bit naive to suggest that corruption is only ever caused by governments, and that black markets don't ever involve corruption.

anamax 17y ago
The claim isn't that corruption is caused by govts, it's that govts make corruption inevitable. Corruption requires a govt from which to extract special privs via illicit means. (Unless, of course, you're referring to moral corruption.) It isn't corruption to dump sewage into the drinking water supply if there's no govt restriction on said dumping that you evade through "connections". (Yes, it's wrong to do so even if there's no rule against it, but corruption is the evasion, not the act itself.) Of course, black markets often involve corruption because "black market" is, by definition, illegal, which requires a govt. There is a form of corruption involving companies (such as bribing someone to get hired) but they don't affect other people.
- foldr 17y ago
  >The claim isn't that corruption is caused by govts, it's that govts make corruption inevitable. They also enforce laws preventing it. >There is a form of corruption involving companies (such as bribing someone to get hired) but they don't affect other people. Of course they affect other people, what do you mean? There are all kinds of harmful corrupt practices not involving governments.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > They also enforce laws preventing it. All govts selectively enforce laws. The "bad" cases get called corruption. > Of course they affect other people, what do you mean? Exactly what I wrote. If I don't do biz with a company, whether or not it follows its rules doesn't matter to me at all. In fact, I can even avoid a company that obeys all of its rules. One can almost always avoid a company. It's very hard to avoid a govt. > There are all kinds of harmful corrupt practices not involving governments. How about three examples?
    - foldr 17y ago
      >All govts selectively enforce laws. The "bad" cases get called corruption. Agreed, but I don't see what this has to do with our discussion. Selective enforcement of laws by a government is certainly one form of corruption, but I see no reason to define the word "corruption" so that nothing else counts. If you prefer, we can talk about "schmorruption", and reserve the term "corruption" for cases involving governments, if the definition of this particular word is so important to you. >. If I don't do biz with a company, whether or not it follows its rules doesn't matter to me at all That's just false. Ever heard the word "externality"? If a company has corrupt hiring practices, for example, that's going to adversely affect the people who would have been employed by that company if it had a fair hiring process. And in any case, it's not always so easy for consumers to avoid doing business with a company (try avoiding business with your local electric company). >How about three examples? Nepotism, price fixing and protection rackets.
      - anamax 17y ago
        >>All govts selectively enforce laws. The "bad" cases get called corruption. >Agreed, but I don't see what this has to do with our discussion. The relevance is that you charged in arguing that govts weren't all that relevant to corruption, your best argument being that they "enforce laws". I merely pointed out that how they enforce laws is where most corruption occurs. > That's just false. Ever heard the word "externality"? Yes, I have, and it has nothing to do with biz-only corruption. >>How about three examples? [of biz-only corruption that affect other people unwillingly] > Nepotism, price fixing and protection rackets. You seem to think that every bad thing that a company can do is corruption. It isn't. You're not owed a job at a given company, so nepotism isn't interfering with something that you're entitled to. Price fixing and protection rackets aren't even (necessarily) violations of a company's rules (which is a necessary condition for corruption).