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The problem with this argument is that modern technology has vastly increased the rate with which ideas spread, greatly decreased the amount of time it takes to

The problem with this argument is that modern technology has vastly increased the rate with which ideas spread, greatly decreased the amount of time it takes to test a new idea for "stickiness", and made dramatic changes in the "selection pressure" for ideas. Back before printing it would take a minimum of weeks for an idea to work itself across, say, Europe. (And that would have to be a big idea, one worth hiring the Pony Express to promulgate.) Now it takes a minimum of milliseconds. Before the web you had to publish a paper or convene a major international meeting to place an issue in front of most of the world's experts on a subject; now you can do that in the morning and have everyone's first response on your desk by the afternoon. I work in near-real time with colleagues twelve times zones away. Meanwhile, while we're engaged in potentially bogus extrapolation from biology, I'd note that human "mimetic" copying has vastly less fidelity than genetic copying, even in the age of web-based copy-and-paste. Yet that hasn't stopped the descendants of bacteria from turning into dolphins. Indeed, it probably helps: If you're going to tinker with the genetics to see if something better happens, it's best to tinker with one gene at a time, not start flipping every switch at once.

pohl 17y ago
Yeah, the parallel to biology does kind of break down in your 3rd paragraph, since the mapping from genotypes to phenotypes tends to magnify small changes in the former to become large changes in the latter. Is there something in the world of memes that's isomorphic to that mapping? I can't think of one. On the whole, though, I had a similar response to the original question: technology has increased the rate of copying, and the reach of any given meme. I grew up in Podunk, Nebraska as the lone atheist in a town of 180 Lutherans and Methodists and I recall being frightened of holding beliefs that were so different that they didn't even appear on television at the time. Today any belief is at your fingertips. I'm still shocked that we've come so far that Bill Maher's "Religulous" was in general release! The environment in which memes compete today is far more interesting. It's as if millions of little disconnected lakes have suddenly become one, connected ocean. Edit: I honestly don't understand how amichail could think that creativity has slowed down. More people than ever are using technology right now to create & share videos, songs, podcasts, programs, essays, fiction, art, and conversation online. I'd love to see the color of the sky in your world. ;-) While you're right that technology has increased the fidelity of replication, that leaves out the process of how a human accepts/rejects/morphs the information. Have you never encountered the word "meh" online?
jerf 17y ago
You beat me to it, only I feel somewhat compelled to add a big "What?! What?!" In light of multiple increases in the speed of memetic evolution as mechanical_fish outlines, where on Earth do you get the idea that idea formation has slowed down? I can't even fathom such a thing. Your (general sense of "you", i.e., this is true for me too) view of the past is skewed by the fact that we see it all at once, and we are not living it. However, try this: Take your favorite "fast moving" time, perhaps the Enlightenment era. Plot the popular ideas on a timeline. Do the same thing with the last century, on the same scale. Now, put those two timelines next to each other, and you will achieve enlightenment. By the way, no fair letting ignorance drive the timeline. No fair putting down all sorts of 18th century advances in, say, philosophy, then claiming the entire 20th century was a yawning, gaping void... because while your (again, general "you") knowledge of 20th century philosophy may be a gaping void, actual 20th century philosophy was not. In fact, the reason why we all know much more about the 18th century than the 20th century is that so damn much happened in the 20th century that you can only absorb small parts of it. And while the economy in the 21st has slowed down, idea formation sure hasn't.

pohl 17y ago

Yeah, the parallel to biology does kind of break down in your 3rd paragraph, since the mapping from genotypes to phenotypes tends to magnify small changes in the former to become large changes in the latter. Is there something in the world of memes that's isomorphic to that mapping? I can't think of one. On the whole, though, I had a similar response to the original question: technology has increased the rate of copying, and the reach of any given meme. I grew up in Podunk, Nebraska as the lone atheist in a town of 180 Lutherans and Methodists and I recall being frightened of holding beliefs that were so different that they didn't even appear on television at the time. Today any belief is at your fingertips. I'm still shocked that we've come so far that Bill Maher's "Religulous" was in general release! The environment in which memes compete today is far more interesting. It's as if millions of little disconnected lakes have suddenly become one, connected ocean. Edit: I honestly don't understand how amichail could think that creativity has slowed down. More people than ever are using technology right now to create & share videos, songs, podcasts, programs, essays, fiction, art, and conversation online. I'd love to see the color of the sky in your world. ;-) While you're right that technology has increased the fidelity of replication, that leaves out the process of how a human accepts/rejects/morphs the information. Have you never encountered the word "meh" online?

jerf 17y ago

You beat me to it, only I feel somewhat compelled to add a big "What?! What?!" In light of multiple increases in the speed of memetic evolution as mechanical_fish outlines, where on Earth do you get the idea that idea formation has slowed down? I can't even fathom such a thing. Your (general sense of "you", i.e., this is true for me too) view of the past is skewed by the fact that we see it all at once, and we are not living it. However, try this: Take your favorite "fast moving" time, perhaps the Enlightenment era. Plot the popular ideas on a timeline. Do the same thing with the last century, on the same scale. Now, put those two timelines next to each other, and you will achieve enlightenment. By the way, no fair letting ignorance drive the timeline. No fair putting down all sorts of 18th century advances in, say, philosophy, then claiming the entire 20th century was a yawning, gaping void... because while your (again, general "you") knowledge of 20th century philosophy may be a gaping void, actual 20th century philosophy was not. In fact, the reason why we all know much more about the 18th century than the 20th century is that so damn much happened in the 20th century that you can only absorb small parts of it. And while the economy in the 21st has slowed down, idea formation sure hasn't.