4 ms·

> In 1971 the US ended the Bretton Woods system, finally freeing the dollar from any pegging. (Thanks for the wrong hint) Eh? You were complaining about inflat

> In 1971 the US ended the Bretton Woods system, finally freeing the dollar from any pegging. (Thanks for the wrong hint) Eh? You were complaining about inflation not foreign exchange rates. For reference you said: > In this sense, taxes are higher now, since the dollar was pegged to gold then. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-inflation-rates/ http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-in... http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=1917&year2=1918 http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1&year1=1917&ye... You can verify the #s there too, cept by year to give you an idea. 1917-1918? 18% inflation Let me point out a few lines for you: 1917 12.5 15.4 14.3 18.9 19.6 20.4 18.5 19.3 19.8 19.5 17.4 18.1 17.4 1918 19.7 17.5 16.7 12.7 13.3 13.1 18.0 18.5 18.0 18.5 20.7 20.4 18.0 1919 17.9 14.9 17.1 17.6 16.6 15.0 15.2 14.9 13.4 13.1 13.5 14.5 14.6 1934 2.3 4.7 5.6 5.6 5.6 5.5 2.3 1.5 3.0 2.3 2.3 1.5 3.1 1935 3.0 3.0 3.0 3.8 3.8 2.2 2.2 2.2 0.7 1.5 2.2 3.0 2.2 Bretton Woods was for handling international exchange rates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system#Fixed_exchange_rates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system#Fixed_exch... Do you get it now? Or are you confusing the rate for gold for the rate for real goods [e.g. Food, Housing, Labor] still?

innguest 12y ago
From the site you linked: "Rates of inflation are calculated using the current Consumer Price Index" The CPI presents several problems when used to measure inflation: http://goo.gl/Ywh3T9 http://goo.gl/Ywh3T9 Members of the Bretton Woods system "were required to establish a parity of their national currencies in terms of the reserve currency" (that's the US Dollar) and "to bolster faith in the dollar, the U.S. agreed separately to link the dollar to gold at the rate of $35 per ounce of gold". When Bretton Woods ended, so did the 1 Ounce of Gold <-> $35 USD promise, and Nixon in 1971 said "I am now a Keynesian in economics".
- opendais 12y ago
  So, basically, your argument is you ignore reality and substitute your own. The Gold Standard pegged the cost of one good [gold] to the price of the USD. It didn't magically make inflation disappear. RE: Bretton Woods Fixing the exchange rate doesn't magically make inflation disappear is a fact. The value of gold [relative to other goods] did vary overtime. Here you can see it in Oil: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=F000000__3&f=A http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=F0... 1940's 1.02 1.14 1.19 1.20 1.21 1.22 1.41 1.93 2.60 2.54 1950's 2.51 2.53 2.53 2.68 2.78 2.77 2.79 3.09 3.01 2.90 1960's 2.88 2.89 2.90 2.89 2.88 2.86 2.88 2.92 2.94 3.09 Under Bretton Woods, it roughly tripled. If inflation does not exist on the gold standard and technology/economic efficiency of production always improves, how does this happen? Perhaps Cattle? http://nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Washington/Historic_Data/livestock/cattlmya.pdf http://nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Washington/Historic... 1944 - 10.60 1970 - 27.00 Or are you going to claim everything just magically gets more expensive over time due to "market forces"? Hint: If you do, that is inflation. RE: The CPI A) The changes you complain about are all post 1980s. So, your complaint about changes in methodology aren't relevant since they don't affect the previous measurements. B) Even if they were relevant, I can cherry pick data to BS my way to my proof if I really wanted but let us just show exactly how much reality you have to ignore to believe Schiff: "From 1970 to 1980, the CPI rose 112% according to official statistics. During the same time period, the price of Schiff’s basket of 20 goods rose 117%. This leads to a difference of just 5% points." Try paying 95% of your bills and see how that works out for you. You can't just make economic measurements up out of whole cloth and ignore entire industries. "To prove there are problems with the official CPI, Schiff calculated the price changes of a basket of 20 goods that consist of common household purchases. Schiff’s CPI basket of 20 goods included: eggs, new cars, milk, gasoline, bread, rent for a primary residence, coffee, dental services, potatoes, electricity, sugar, airline tickets, butter, store-purchased beer, apples, public transportation, cereal, tires, beef, and prescription drugs." Things in the CPI ( http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm ) that he ignores: 1) People who purchase homes, which is the majority. 60+% of people own rather than rent. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-29/u-s-homeownership-rate-falls-to-lowest-in-19-years.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-29/u-s-homeownership-r... So we throw out 60% of housing data [31% of the total basket] because he says so? That is sheer stupidity. 2) We ignore fuel oil and the price of the gas you buy from the utility like he does? No, we don't. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=49&t=8 http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=49&t=8 Once again, he ignores 60% of households with his basket. That is 32% of the CPI basket he ignores now. 3) Medical services? Everyone needs those, he ignores those. That is another 5.8% of the CPI measure he ignores and pretends doesn't exist with his made up bullshit. That is 37.8% of normal household expenditures he now ignores. 4) He ignores CLOTHING for fuck's sake. That brings us up to 40.1% of the CPI basket he ignores. You are apparently naked. 5) He ignores the difference between eating out vs. eating in. We are up to 45.8%. No one ever eats out. Ever. Clearly, this is true. You've never eaten in a restaurant. 6) He ignores Tobacco (included in the CPI). This puts up to about 46.5% of real world purchases by households you are ignoring. So just to reiterate in Schiff (and your) reality: 1) You are naked. 2) You do not eat out. 3) You do not use the gas utilities. 4) You do not change the oil in your car. 5) You do not own a home. 6) You never utilize a physician or hospital. 7) You don't use tobacco. I don't know how you can take Schiff seriously if you do any of those 7 things. Given you aren't posting this from jail for public indecency ... I'm assuming you have to admit you wear clothes. Some other people bitching about the complete ignorance of reality: http://www.etvita.com/2013/04/peter-schiff-is-wrong-about-everything.html http://www.etvita.com/2013/04/peter-schiff-is-wrong-about-ev... http://theweek.com/article/index/258502/no-the-government-isnt-lying-about-inflation http://theweek.com/article/index/258502/no-the-government-is...
  - innguest 12y ago
    > Under Bretton Woods, it roughly tripled. If inflation does not exist on the gold standard [...] how does this happen? Bretton Woods != Gold Standard. We were off the gold standard in 1933 with the Gold Reserve Act. You said that yourself a couple posts above. That was the first part of the unpegging which reached its conclusion in 1971. But it started in 1933. To illustrate this further, Executive Order 6102 made it illegal for US citizens to trade gold, and this was in effect all the way until 1975 (notice how 1975 comes after 1971 - we can finally trade gold freely but uh-oh, gold isn't money anymore so what's the point?) So to answer your question, Bretton Woods was born and died outside the gold standard, and that's why you see the inflation you pointed out. Regarding the CPI, I will refrain from commenting on your remarks out of ignorance. This is very new territory to me, which I'm still navigating. Some remarks you made went over my head but I can see that it's because of gaps in my knowledge. I found the BPP argument interesting, but it seems it started to show the real inflation and then they changed their formulae: http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mit-tepcoes-its-billion-prices-project http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mit-tepcoes-its-billion-pri... So instead I will step back from this tangent. We got into CPI over disagreement on how much inflation there is, and I was arguing that there's a lot of inflation because we went off the gold standard, and so that's why factory jobs don't pay $30/h anymore. You argued that I have it backwards and that everything was good in the 70s. You said it worsened in the 80s and asked me to explain how and I justified it by saying that's when Neoliberal policies took over. What part of this do you disagree with?
    - opendais 12y ago
      Eh, I also included periods during the Gold Standard in the previous post: 1917 12.5 15.4 14.3 18.9 19.6 20.4 18.5 19.3 19.8 19.5 17.4 18.1 17.4 1918 19.7 17.5 16.7 12.7 13.3 13.1 18.0 18.5 18.0 18.5 20.7 20.4 18.0 1919 17.9 14.9 17.1 17.6 16.6 15.0 15.2 14.9 13.4 13.1 13.5 14.5 14.6 See those inflation #s? We just aren't going to agree. Because I'm of the opinion the CPI isn't perfect ... but compared to other CPI data points, its relatively accurate. The problem with the "perfect, ideal" idea is the fact that, frankly, no one ever tried to build it and graph it over time. Those that pretend they want that are just pushing an ideological agenda and drop large portions of the basket completely. The problem with the CPI is the qualitative analysis, by its nature, fundamentally imperfect. It is an opinion. That said, you can't just drop categories and claim to be anything except a joke. > So instead I will step back from this tangent. We got into CPI over disagreement on how much inflation there is, and I was arguing that there's a lot of inflation because we went off the gold standard, and so that's why factory jobs don't pay $30/h anymore. You argued that I have it backwards and that everything was good in the 70s. You said it worsened in the 80s and asked me to explain how and I justified it by saying that's when Neoliberal policies took over. What part of this do you disagree with? It seems roughly right for what was said. The reason factory jobs don't pay $30/h is because of globalization [cheaper to produce goods in other countries], tax burden shifting from capital to labor [ http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates?op=1 ], etc. That isn't really a "Neoliberal" issue but more simply technological progress has allowed us to outsource more to cheaper labor countries. I don't care too much as long as people have a living wage [which is at least $10/hr] and the poor aren't taxed heavily compared to historic norms.

innguest 12y ago

From the site you linked: "Rates of inflation are calculated using the current Consumer Price Index" The CPI presents several problems when used to measure inflation: http://goo.gl/Ywh3T9 http://goo.gl/Ywh3T9 Members of the Bretton Woods system "were required to establish a parity of their national currencies in terms of the reserve currency" (that's the US Dollar) and "to bolster faith in the dollar, the U.S. agreed separately to link the dollar to gold at the rate of $35 per ounce of gold". When Bretton Woods ended, so did the 1 Ounce of Gold <-> $35 USD promise, and Nixon in 1971 said "I am now a Keynesian in economics".

opendais 12y ago
So, basically, your argument is you ignore reality and substitute your own. The Gold Standard pegged the cost of one good [gold] to the price of the USD. It didn't magically make inflation disappear. RE: Bretton Woods Fixing the exchange rate doesn't magically make inflation disappear is a fact. The value of gold [relative to other goods] did vary overtime. Here you can see it in Oil: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=F000000__3&f=A http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=F0... 1940's 1.02 1.14 1.19 1.20 1.21 1.22 1.41 1.93 2.60 2.54 1950's 2.51 2.53 2.53 2.68 2.78 2.77 2.79 3.09 3.01 2.90 1960's 2.88 2.89 2.90 2.89 2.88 2.86 2.88 2.92 2.94 3.09 Under Bretton Woods, it roughly tripled. If inflation does not exist on the gold standard and technology/economic efficiency of production always improves, how does this happen? Perhaps Cattle? http://nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Washington/Historic_Data/livestock/cattlmya.pdf http://nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Washington/Historic... 1944 - 10.60 1970 - 27.00 Or are you going to claim everything just magically gets more expensive over time due to "market forces"? Hint: If you do, that is inflation. RE: The CPI A) The changes you complain about are all post 1980s. So, your complaint about changes in methodology aren't relevant since they don't affect the previous measurements. B) Even if they were relevant, I can cherry pick data to BS my way to my proof if I really wanted but let us just show exactly how much reality you have to ignore to believe Schiff: "From 1970 to 1980, the CPI rose 112% according to official statistics. During the same time period, the price of Schiff’s basket of 20 goods rose 117%. This leads to a difference of just 5% points." Try paying 95% of your bills and see how that works out for you. You can't just make economic measurements up out of whole cloth and ignore entire industries. "To prove there are problems with the official CPI, Schiff calculated the price changes of a basket of 20 goods that consist of common household purchases. Schiff’s CPI basket of 20 goods included: eggs, new cars, milk, gasoline, bread, rent for a primary residence, coffee, dental services, potatoes, electricity, sugar, airline tickets, butter, store-purchased beer, apples, public transportation, cereal, tires, beef, and prescription drugs." Things in the CPI ( http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t01.htm ) that he ignores: 1) People who purchase homes, which is the majority. 60+% of people own rather than rent. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-29/u-s-homeownership-rate-falls-to-lowest-in-19-years.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-29/u-s-homeownership-r... So we throw out 60% of housing data [31% of the total basket] because he says so? That is sheer stupidity. 2) We ignore fuel oil and the price of the gas you buy from the utility like he does? No, we don't. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=49&t=8 http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=49&t=8 Once again, he ignores 60% of households with his basket. That is 32% of the CPI basket he ignores now. 3) Medical services? Everyone needs those, he ignores those. That is another 5.8% of the CPI measure he ignores and pretends doesn't exist with his made up bullshit. That is 37.8% of normal household expenditures he now ignores. 4) He ignores CLOTHING for fuck's sake. That brings us up to 40.1% of the CPI basket he ignores. You are apparently naked. 5) He ignores the difference between eating out vs. eating in. We are up to 45.8%. No one ever eats out. Ever. Clearly, this is true. You've never eaten in a restaurant. 6) He ignores Tobacco (included in the CPI). This puts up to about 46.5% of real world purchases by households you are ignoring. So just to reiterate in Schiff (and your) reality: 1) You are naked. 2) You do not eat out. 3) You do not use the gas utilities. 4) You do not change the oil in your car. 5) You do not own a home. 6) You never utilize a physician or hospital. 7) You don't use tobacco. I don't know how you can take Schiff seriously if you do any of those 7 things. Given you aren't posting this from jail for public indecency ... I'm assuming you have to admit you wear clothes. Some other people bitching about the complete ignorance of reality: http://www.etvita.com/2013/04/peter-schiff-is-wrong-about-everything.html http://www.etvita.com/2013/04/peter-schiff-is-wrong-about-ev... http://theweek.com/article/index/258502/no-the-government-isnt-lying-about-inflation http://theweek.com/article/index/258502/no-the-government-is...
- innguest 12y ago
  > Under Bretton Woods, it roughly tripled. If inflation does not exist on the gold standard [...] how does this happen? Bretton Woods != Gold Standard. We were off the gold standard in 1933 with the Gold Reserve Act. You said that yourself a couple posts above. That was the first part of the unpegging which reached its conclusion in 1971. But it started in 1933. To illustrate this further, Executive Order 6102 made it illegal for US citizens to trade gold, and this was in effect all the way until 1975 (notice how 1975 comes after 1971 - we can finally trade gold freely but uh-oh, gold isn't money anymore so what's the point?) So to answer your question, Bretton Woods was born and died outside the gold standard, and that's why you see the inflation you pointed out. Regarding the CPI, I will refrain from commenting on your remarks out of ignorance. This is very new territory to me, which I'm still navigating. Some remarks you made went over my head but I can see that it's because of gaps in my knowledge. I found the BPP argument interesting, but it seems it started to show the real inflation and then they changed their formulae: http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mit-tepcoes-its-billion-prices-project http://www.zerohedge.com/article/mit-tepcoes-its-billion-pri... So instead I will step back from this tangent. We got into CPI over disagreement on how much inflation there is, and I was arguing that there's a lot of inflation because we went off the gold standard, and so that's why factory jobs don't pay $30/h anymore. You argued that I have it backwards and that everything was good in the 70s. You said it worsened in the 80s and asked me to explain how and I justified it by saying that's when Neoliberal policies took over. What part of this do you disagree with?
  - opendais 12y ago
    Eh, I also included periods during the Gold Standard in the previous post: 1917 12.5 15.4 14.3 18.9 19.6 20.4 18.5 19.3 19.8 19.5 17.4 18.1 17.4 1918 19.7 17.5 16.7 12.7 13.3 13.1 18.0 18.5 18.0 18.5 20.7 20.4 18.0 1919 17.9 14.9 17.1 17.6 16.6 15.0 15.2 14.9 13.4 13.1 13.5 14.5 14.6 See those inflation #s? We just aren't going to agree. Because I'm of the opinion the CPI isn't perfect ... but compared to other CPI data points, its relatively accurate. The problem with the "perfect, ideal" idea is the fact that, frankly, no one ever tried to build it and graph it over time. Those that pretend they want that are just pushing an ideological agenda and drop large portions of the basket completely. The problem with the CPI is the qualitative analysis, by its nature, fundamentally imperfect. It is an opinion. That said, you can't just drop categories and claim to be anything except a joke. > So instead I will step back from this tangent. We got into CPI over disagreement on how much inflation there is, and I was arguing that there's a lot of inflation because we went off the gold standard, and so that's why factory jobs don't pay $30/h anymore. You argued that I have it backwards and that everything was good in the 70s. You said it worsened in the 80s and asked me to explain how and I justified it by saying that's when Neoliberal policies took over. What part of this do you disagree with? It seems roughly right for what was said. The reason factory jobs don't pay $30/h is because of globalization [cheaper to produce goods in other countries], tax burden shifting from capital to labor [ http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates?op=1 ], etc. That isn't really a "Neoliberal" issue but more simply technological progress has allowed us to outsource more to cheaper labor countries. I don't care too much as long as people have a living wage [which is at least $10/hr] and the poor aren't taxed heavily compared to historic norms.