5 ms·

A connected headband that helps you focus your thoughts

47 points by mantesso 12y ago

CoolGuySteve 12y ago
So there's a sleep tracking EEG gadget and a meditation EEG gadget, but not one that can do both. I would like it if these devices all communicated over a common protocol so the sensor bands could be separated from the software. I dissected the OCZ Nia protocol once and it wasn't pretty, it seemed a lot of smoothing happened in the proprietary driver. Maybe these devices all have the same issue, making smoothing in each band's firmware cost prohibitive.
- DenisM 12y ago
  > there's a sleep tracking EEG gadget Which one would that be?
  - gwern 12y ago
    The late lamented Zeo, possibly.
    - DenisM 12y ago
      I doubt Zeo was doing any actual EEG. It certainly didn't show it to the user. As to their "smart logic" - my friend fooled it into proclaiming deep sleep by merely sitting still.
      - gwern 12y ago
        > I doubt Zeo was doing any actual EEG. It certainly didn't show it to the user. Why do you say that? If it wasn't doing EEG, uh, what was it doing? And why was the published research comparing it to polysomnograph setups with EEGs? > As to their "smart logic" - my friend fooled it into proclaiming deep sleep by merely sitting still. And yet, it's always worked brilliantly for me.
        DenisM 12y ago
        My guess is that Zeo mostly measured motion - motion correlates well with sleep, which explains why it seems "to work" for you and others, and despite that it can still be fooled by sitting still. I haven't read the studies, so I don't know about them - maybe they just found correlation? I do know that my friend's experiment has pretty much completely deflated my interest in Zeo. Though he is not your friend, so you're free to disregard it. :) The other thing to consider is price - pretty much all of the real EEG gadgets even today come above $300, and have more than one electrode. It's "too good to be true" type of situation. What electric signal Zeo did use likely wasn't EEG, maybe some sort of skin sensor.
        gwern 12y ago
        > My guess is that Zeo mostly measured motion - motion correlates well with sleep, which explains why it seems "to work" for you and others, and despite that it can still be fooled by sitting still. I tried the same thing but nothing doing. And measuring motion wouldn't get sleep phase. > The other thing to consider is price - pretty much all of the real EEG gadgets even today come above $300, and have more than one electrode. It's "too good to be true" type of situation. What electric signal Zeo did use likely wasn't EEG, maybe some sort of skin sensor. The Zeo did cost $300+ originally!
- vsviridov 12y ago
  Hopefully once Emotiv Insight comes out it'll be able to do both and more...
  - RachelF 12y ago
    Emmotiv seem to take forever with their releases. I have given up hope. It is nice to see more and more of these headsets coming out. It would be interesting to measure what tDCS actually does, although the tDCS devices may blow the ECG headsets. https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/wiki/faq https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/wiki/faq
l33tbro 12y ago
Coming soon to an episode of Silicon Valley I'm sure
RachelF 12y ago
Wikipedia has a nice table listing all the EEG headsets and how to make your own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E2%80%93computer_interfaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E...
Jonovono 12y ago
Tim Ferriss just posted a detailed article by Shane Snow that goes into some detail as well: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2014/09/12/muse-interaxon/ http://fourhourworkweek.com/2014/09/12/muse-interaxon/
- RachelF 12y ago
  That's a good review. It seems like the product is unfinished, though: " Disappointingly, though Garten and Muse Calm both promised me these “additional features and special insights into my brain”, once I unlocked the screen, I got simply a blank, broken page:blankbonus"
norseboar 12y ago
I've got a muse, and it works wonderfully (at least, compared to Neurosky sets). The most frustrating bit is that there's no API -- meditation is good and all, but I'd really like a sensor of that quality that one could hack with.
- Jonovono 12y ago
  The best right now: http://www.choosemuse.com/pages/developers#download http://www.choosemuse.com/pages/developers#download
- desireco42 12y ago
  I have NeuroSky headphones... very hard to use and apps crash all the time if they pair at all. Thing is that, while I understand the benefit, for $300 it isn't likely I will spend it on something like this.
  - maxxxxx 12y ago
    I also have a NeuroSky headset. It's a nice toy but not really useful.

47 points by mantesso 12y ago

So there's a sleep tracking EEG gadget and a meditation EEG gadget, but not one that can do both. I would like it if these devices all communicated over a common protocol so the sensor bands could be separated from the software. I dissected the OCZ Nia protocol once and it wasn't pretty, it seemed a lot of smoothing happened in the proprietary driver. Maybe these devices all have the same issue, making smoothing in each band's firmware cost prohibitive.

DenisM 12y ago
> there's a sleep tracking EEG gadget Which one would that be?
- gwern 12y ago
  The late lamented Zeo, possibly.
  - DenisM 12y ago
    I doubt Zeo was doing any actual EEG. It certainly didn't show it to the user. As to their "smart logic" - my friend fooled it into proclaiming deep sleep by merely sitting still.
    - gwern 12y ago
      > I doubt Zeo was doing any actual EEG. It certainly didn't show it to the user. Why do you say that? If it wasn't doing EEG, uh, what was it doing? And why was the published research comparing it to polysomnograph setups with EEGs? > As to their "smart logic" - my friend fooled it into proclaiming deep sleep by merely sitting still. And yet, it's always worked brilliantly for me.
      - DenisM 12y ago
        My guess is that Zeo mostly measured motion - motion correlates well with sleep, which explains why it seems "to work" for you and others, and despite that it can still be fooled by sitting still. I haven't read the studies, so I don't know about them - maybe they just found correlation? I do know that my friend's experiment has pretty much completely deflated my interest in Zeo. Though he is not your friend, so you're free to disregard it. :) The other thing to consider is price - pretty much all of the real EEG gadgets even today come above $300, and have more than one electrode. It's "too good to be true" type of situation. What electric signal Zeo did use likely wasn't EEG, maybe some sort of skin sensor.
        gwern 12y ago
        > My guess is that Zeo mostly measured motion - motion correlates well with sleep, which explains why it seems "to work" for you and others, and despite that it can still be fooled by sitting still. I tried the same thing but nothing doing. And measuring motion wouldn't get sleep phase. > The other thing to consider is price - pretty much all of the real EEG gadgets even today come above $300, and have more than one electrode. It's "too good to be true" type of situation. What electric signal Zeo did use likely wasn't EEG, maybe some sort of skin sensor. The Zeo did cost $300+ originally!
vsviridov 12y ago
Hopefully once Emotiv Insight comes out it'll be able to do both and more...
- RachelF 12y ago
  Emmotiv seem to take forever with their releases. I have given up hope. It is nice to see more and more of these headsets coming out. It would be interesting to measure what tDCS actually does, although the tDCS devices may blow the ECG headsets. https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/wiki/faq https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/wiki/faq

l33tbro 12y ago

Coming soon to an episode of Silicon Valley I'm sure

RachelF 12y ago

Wikipedia has a nice table listing all the EEG headsets and how to make your own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E2%80%93computer_interfaces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E...

Jonovono 12y ago

Tim Ferriss just posted a detailed article by Shane Snow that goes into some detail as well: http://fourhourworkweek.com/2014/09/12/muse-interaxon/ http://fourhourworkweek.com/2014/09/12/muse-interaxon/

RachelF 12y ago
That's a good review. It seems like the product is unfinished, though: " Disappointingly, though Garten and Muse Calm both promised me these “additional features and special insights into my brain”, once I unlocked the screen, I got simply a blank, broken page:blankbonus"

norseboar 12y ago

I've got a muse, and it works wonderfully (at least, compared to Neurosky sets). The most frustrating bit is that there's no API -- meditation is good and all, but I'd really like a sensor of that quality that one could hack with.

Jonovono 12y ago
The best right now: http://www.choosemuse.com/pages/developers#download http://www.choosemuse.com/pages/developers#download
desireco42 12y ago
I have NeuroSky headphones... very hard to use and apps crash all the time if they pair at all. Thing is that, while I understand the benefit, for $300 it isn't likely I will spend it on something like this.
- maxxxxx 12y ago
  I also have a NeuroSky headset. It's a nice toy but not really useful.