7 ms·

Birth Control: A Twenty-Something’s Best Asset Class

33 points by vonnik 12y ago

klochner 12y ago
Infinite ROI: stop having sex.
- jackmaney 12y ago
  That's a failing business model, and I suspect you know it.
  - wolfgke 12y ago
    Not necessarily: Why do you think porn sites exist?
    - jackmaney 12y ago
      ROFL And just what do you think happens in many of the videos and pics on these sites?
- chc 12y ago
  Only if you value things very differently than most people, I believe. For most people, foregoing romantic relationships seems to be a pretty steep cost.
  - klochner 12y ago
    That was basically my point, the article is absurd - you don't calculate P&L on having kids.
    - chc 12y ago
      Are you actually suggesting that having unplanned kids out of wedlock before you are ready is a good idea? Because otherwise, I don't see the absurdity. It's unquestionably expensive and if you don't want it, it does not have value that you would seek out, so yes, we can say it's a huge money sink.
      - Amezarak 12y ago
        Without immigration and unplanned pregnancies, we'd be well below replacement rate. Maybe it isn't good for your individual finances, but it'd be disastrous on a societal level.
        chc 12y ago
        Unless birth control reduces immigration, I don't see why that would necessarily be so.
      - seanflyon 12y ago
        > if you don't want it, it does not have value that you would seek out Many people are quite happy with their unplanned children, so it is difficult to make this value judgment. It is also extremely difficult to measure as I suspect most of those who regret unplanned children are unwilling to admit it. You are considering cost versus benefit without any reasonable estimation of benefit.
        chc 12y ago
        I am considering the individual's value estimation at the time the decision is being made. I don't feel like the fact that they might revise their values later really matters for something like this.
        seanflyon 12y ago
        When estimating the future costs and benefits of a decision why would you use the persons present values and not their future values? It seems silly to consider how much present day me would enjoy something in the future instead of how much future me would enjoy it when it will clearly be future me, not present me enjoying it.
- angersock 12y ago
  Are you kidding? Where are you going to get the next generation of freemium mobile game and social network users from, eh?
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    No; more importantly, who are you going to sell them to? When your livelihood depends on "a sucker born every minute", you need to keep that flow going!
    - scottlocklin 12y ago
      Open borders!
incongruity 12y ago
This also makes the point for why access to (and use of) birth control/family planning (and, even abortion) are so important for the financial wellbeing of lower-income individuals (women in particular, due to the imbalance in biological burden).
xdissent 12y ago
Observation unrelated to article content: For some reason this site hijacks the swipe-left and swipe-right actions on a magic mouse, preventing Safari swipe navigation. It scrolls up and down instead.
angersock 12y ago
Note: this was (briefly) flagged as dead, either through automagic or mods. This is exactly the sort of article that I like seeing on HN: funny, well-written, and with hard (snicker) numbers to back up its assertions.
- vonnik 12y ago
  Thanks, angersock. Not sure why it got modded. We were pleasantly surprised that it climbed to #9 on organic upvotes, disappointed when it got knocked to #54. I posted it. I manage the blog where it was published, and I don't know what we did wrong...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- notacoward 12y ago
  I'd guess because contraception is seen as an alternative to pregnancy, and pregnancy doesn't incur significant medical costs or risks for the man. What would you be insuring against? NB I'm a father, I know that having kids isn't entirely without health effects for men, but it's close enough for policy purposes.
roc 12y ago
Delaying having a child for ten years also implies that the associated costs of having that child will have continued to climb over the intervening ten years. As many of those costs (healthcare, childcare, education) have been growing at similar (or greater) rates than plausible investment returns, the calculated return of the birth control investment may be overstated a bit.
roymurdock 12y ago
Depends on where that 20-something lives. Children are considered valuable assets in many developing countries where they start generating income for the parents at an early age for a relatively low cost. Would also be interesting to factor in some non-tangibles: Non-parents get more sleep, are healthier, have more financial and career freedom, lead better social lives, get to enjoy their favorite music and TV shows more, worry less, have less general stress, and are less likely to say they are very happy than parents. [0] [0] http://qz.com/262645/people-without-kids-live-better-than-parents-on-all-fronts-except-one/ http://qz.com/262645/people-without-kids-live-better-than-pa...
womanrubberr8i7 12y ago
HUGE almost FREE, sexy pirze at survival blo g. MOM rhymes with three letters for domain name. Why? preparation for barter and like in Greece, the doctors will disappear. cheap silver is really nice, MONEYBAGS, but not practical. For the technies on hacker news, cheap seed sprout using hydr 99 ponics is cheap and during the alleged myth - EBOLA PLAGUE airborne crisis - there is no need to get to the supermarket. PS. no need to get all the hydro 99 ponics, just know how it works and buy a little hardware. Of course Biga Brother is watching, since pottt is not legal in most areas. don't tell your religious pastor / priest / fundamentalist preacher that you are stockpiling RUBBERS for the Kosovo War - starving ladies would trade service for food / water / other and RUBBER WAS WORTH MORE THAN GOLD. RUBBER IS WORTH MORE THAN GOLD. Submit it to the sur blog dot Zom site, please. QED. The full references and open source publishing by a WOMAN graduate student is omit
womanrubberr8i7 12y ago
"Children are considered valuable assets in developing countries" B.S. bull . that's why there are so many Indian farmers in India who commit suicide. That's why after NAFTA, there are so many farmers from Mexico, who HAVE NO WATER DURING THE DROUGHT and too many children who take the trip to the USA. The simplest way to SAVE THE PLANET. Kickstarter - WE PAY small GOLD coin for a FULL RUBBER. We pay (not the government since many do not trust the GOVERNMENT - that is in mexico) big long term cash (as long as no unwanted children) for MALE vasectomy - the reversible one, etc. etc. Kickstarter. these are done by 24 hour/20 minute ROBOT OPERATION assisted surgery for Male Birth Control. The farmers do not need MORE LABOR. But if you are on the dole in the USA, welfare, have plenty of boyfriends for PROTECTION, love a LARGE family, then the USA or SWEDEN with great social benefits IS THE BEST PLACE FOR A LARGE FAMILY / or even just children who are bastards - or 'illegals.' PS. no insult meant to WOMANhood. Tell the truth. Many women in USA are not fit mothers - drinking, smoking, cussing, nasty habits, tendency to credit card debt, getting plenty of monies from multiple boyfriends, etc. Since the Best birth control, at the moment is IUD, there are major defunding and even DEMONSTRATIONS at Planned Parenthood and other organizations. See the Texas law on abortion clincis, etc. That's why in the USA we make it very hard and that is WHY THE USA IS A LEADER IN out of wedlock, tennage pregnancy and SEXUAL DISEASE. NOTE: most of life - from older and wiser - is just avoiding BIG troubles like WAGE SLAVE FOR LIFE - too much graduate school in poetry and DRINKING while at the swimming pool - easy to fall and crack your head.
carsongross 12y ago
And this is why Idiocracy will end up being prophesy: when your society makes having kids the dumb thing to do, you end up having lots of dumb people. I have three kids.
- vonnik 12y ago
  We're not saying having kids is the dumb thing to do. Kids are great. Kids with smart, caring parents are even greater. What we're saying is there are consequences to being careless with birth control. An unplanned pregnancy can be traumatic both emotionally and financially. People who want kids should think about when they'll have the bandwidth to raise them. If you want to spend your 20s raising kids, then by all means. If you're not thinking about it, and behaving carelessly, then maybe this article will make you wake up.
  - carsongross 12y ago
    You are saying it is dumb to do from a financial standpoint. And your analysis is entirely correct. Mr. Money Moustache made effectively the same point in a recent blog post (although he of course had to rationalize having one child since that's what he did): http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/09/10/great-news-youre-allowed-to-have-only-one-kid/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/09/10/great-news-youre-a... What I would note is that this is also the analysis at the start of Idiocracy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 I believe that the second and third order effects of this analysis, which Idiocracy points to, are negative in the long run. Idiocracy is prophesy. I know this strikes many people as flippant, and I do find it quite funny, but I'm entirely serious.
    - vonnik 12y ago
      Carson - we are saying that it is dumb to do in your 20s if you have income you could otherwise invest. Early investments trump later investments. We're not saying don't have kids. We're saying that 20-somethings could do themselves a favor by thinking long term. If people are going to have kids, then I certainly want the smart, hard-working, forward-looking people to have kids. We're not arguing against that. We're making an argument about a time of life. Personally, I have a daughter whom I love very much. She was not planned. I'm not actually sure that this planet will be a good place for her or for humans in a few decades, at the rate we are changing the environment. Given that we are headed for large-scale natural disaster, you could argue that the Idiocracy already prevails. Or from another angle, that humans act like idiots when in large groups. In either case, the quality of the humans reproducing may be a moot point.

33 points by vonnik 12y ago

klochner 12y ago

Infinite ROI: stop having sex.

jackmaney 12y ago
That's a failing business model, and I suspect you know it.
- wolfgke 12y ago
  Not necessarily: Why do you think porn sites exist?
  - jackmaney 12y ago
    ROFL And just what do you think happens in many of the videos and pics on these sites?
chc 12y ago
Only if you value things very differently than most people, I believe. For most people, foregoing romantic relationships seems to be a pretty steep cost.
- klochner 12y ago
  That was basically my point, the article is absurd - you don't calculate P&L on having kids.
  - chc 12y ago
    Are you actually suggesting that having unplanned kids out of wedlock before you are ready is a good idea? Because otherwise, I don't see the absurdity. It's unquestionably expensive and if you don't want it, it does not have value that you would seek out, so yes, we can say it's a huge money sink.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      Without immigration and unplanned pregnancies, we'd be well below replacement rate. Maybe it isn't good for your individual finances, but it'd be disastrous on a societal level.
      - chc 12y ago
        Unless birth control reduces immigration, I don't see why that would necessarily be so.
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      > if you don't want it, it does not have value that you would seek out Many people are quite happy with their unplanned children, so it is difficult to make this value judgment. It is also extremely difficult to measure as I suspect most of those who regret unplanned children are unwilling to admit it. You are considering cost versus benefit without any reasonable estimation of benefit.
      - chc 12y ago
        I am considering the individual's value estimation at the time the decision is being made. I don't feel like the fact that they might revise their values later really matters for something like this.
        seanflyon 12y ago
        When estimating the future costs and benefits of a decision why would you use the persons present values and not their future values? It seems silly to consider how much present day me would enjoy something in the future instead of how much future me would enjoy it when it will clearly be future me, not present me enjoying it.
angersock 12y ago
Are you kidding? Where are you going to get the next generation of freemium mobile game and social network users from, eh?
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  No; more importantly, who are you going to sell them to? When your livelihood depends on "a sucker born every minute", you need to keep that flow going!
  - scottlocklin 12y ago
    Open borders!

incongruity 12y ago

This also makes the point for why access to (and use of) birth control/family planning (and, even abortion) are so important for the financial wellbeing of lower-income individuals (women in particular, due to the imbalance in biological burden).

xdissent 12y ago

Observation unrelated to article content: For some reason this site hijacks the swipe-left and swipe-right actions on a magic mouse, preventing Safari swipe navigation. It scrolls up and down instead.

angersock 12y ago

Note: this was (briefly) flagged as dead, either through automagic or mods. This is exactly the sort of article that I like seeing on HN: funny, well-written, and with hard (snicker) numbers to back up its assertions.

vonnik 12y ago
Thanks, angersock. Not sure why it got modded. We were pleasantly surprised that it climbed to #9 on organic upvotes, disappointed when it got knocked to #54. I posted it. I manage the blog where it was published, and I don't know what we did wrong...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

notacoward 12y ago
I'd guess because contraception is seen as an alternative to pregnancy, and pregnancy doesn't incur significant medical costs or risks for the man. What would you be insuring against? NB I'm a father, I know that having kids isn't entirely without health effects for men, but it's close enough for policy purposes.

roc 12y ago

Delaying having a child for ten years also implies that the associated costs of having that child will have continued to climb over the intervening ten years. As many of those costs (healthcare, childcare, education) have been growing at similar (or greater) rates than plausible investment returns, the calculated return of the birth control investment may be overstated a bit.

roymurdock 12y ago

Depends on where that 20-something lives. Children are considered valuable assets in many developing countries where they start generating income for the parents at an early age for a relatively low cost. Would also be interesting to factor in some non-tangibles: Non-parents get more sleep, are healthier, have more financial and career freedom, lead better social lives, get to enjoy their favorite music and TV shows more, worry less, have less general stress, and are less likely to say they are very happy than parents. [0] [0] http://qz.com/262645/people-without-kids-live-better-than-parents-on-all-fronts-except-one/ http://qz.com/262645/people-without-kids-live-better-than-pa...

womanrubberr8i7 12y ago

HUGE almost FREE, sexy pirze at survival blo g. MOM rhymes with three letters for domain name. Why? preparation for barter and like in Greece, the doctors will disappear. cheap silver is really nice, MONEYBAGS, but not practical. For the technies on hacker news, cheap seed sprout using hydr 99 ponics is cheap and during the alleged myth - EBOLA PLAGUE airborne crisis - there is no need to get to the supermarket. PS. no need to get all the hydro 99 ponics, just know how it works and buy a little hardware. Of course Biga Brother is watching, since pottt is not legal in most areas. don't tell your religious pastor / priest / fundamentalist preacher that you are stockpiling RUBBERS for the Kosovo War - starving ladies would trade service for food / water / other and RUBBER WAS WORTH MORE THAN GOLD. RUBBER IS WORTH MORE THAN GOLD. Submit it to the sur blog dot Zom site, please. QED. The full references and open source publishing by a WOMAN graduate student is omit

womanrubberr8i7 12y ago

"Children are considered valuable assets in developing countries" B.S. bull . that's why there are so many Indian farmers in India who commit suicide. That's why after NAFTA, there are so many farmers from Mexico, who HAVE NO WATER DURING THE DROUGHT and too many children who take the trip to the USA. The simplest way to SAVE THE PLANET. Kickstarter - WE PAY small GOLD coin for a FULL RUBBER. We pay (not the government since many do not trust the GOVERNMENT - that is in mexico) big long term cash (as long as no unwanted children) for MALE vasectomy - the reversible one, etc. etc. Kickstarter. these are done by 24 hour/20 minute ROBOT OPERATION assisted surgery for Male Birth Control. The farmers do not need MORE LABOR. But if you are on the dole in the USA, welfare, have plenty of boyfriends for PROTECTION, love a LARGE family, then the USA or SWEDEN with great social benefits IS THE BEST PLACE FOR A LARGE FAMILY / or even just children who are bastards - or 'illegals.' PS. no insult meant to WOMANhood. Tell the truth. Many women in USA are not fit mothers - drinking, smoking, cussing, nasty habits, tendency to credit card debt, getting plenty of monies from multiple boyfriends, etc. Since the Best birth control, at the moment is IUD, there are major defunding and even DEMONSTRATIONS at Planned Parenthood and other organizations. See the Texas law on abortion clincis, etc. That's why in the USA we make it very hard and that is WHY THE USA IS A LEADER IN out of wedlock, tennage pregnancy and SEXUAL DISEASE. NOTE: most of life - from older and wiser - is just avoiding BIG troubles like WAGE SLAVE FOR LIFE - too much graduate school in poetry and DRINKING while at the swimming pool - easy to fall and crack your head.

carsongross 12y ago

And this is why Idiocracy will end up being prophesy: when your society makes having kids the dumb thing to do, you end up having lots of dumb people. I have three kids.

vonnik 12y ago
We're not saying having kids is the dumb thing to do. Kids are great. Kids with smart, caring parents are even greater. What we're saying is there are consequences to being careless with birth control. An unplanned pregnancy can be traumatic both emotionally and financially. People who want kids should think about when they'll have the bandwidth to raise them. If you want to spend your 20s raising kids, then by all means. If you're not thinking about it, and behaving carelessly, then maybe this article will make you wake up.
- carsongross 12y ago
  You are saying it is dumb to do from a financial standpoint. And your analysis is entirely correct. Mr. Money Moustache made effectively the same point in a recent blog post (although he of course had to rationalize having one child since that's what he did): http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/09/10/great-news-youre-allowed-to-have-only-one-kid/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/09/10/great-news-youre-a... What I would note is that this is also the analysis at the start of Idiocracy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8 I believe that the second and third order effects of this analysis, which Idiocracy points to, are negative in the long run. Idiocracy is prophesy. I know this strikes many people as flippant, and I do find it quite funny, but I'm entirely serious.
  - vonnik 12y ago
    Carson - we are saying that it is dumb to do in your 20s if you have income you could otherwise invest. Early investments trump later investments. We're not saying don't have kids. We're saying that 20-somethings could do themselves a favor by thinking long term. If people are going to have kids, then I certainly want the smart, hard-working, forward-looking people to have kids. We're not arguing against that. We're making an argument about a time of life. Personally, I have a daughter whom I love very much. She was not planned. I'm not actually sure that this planet will be a good place for her or for humans in a few decades, at the rate we are changing the environment. Given that we are headed for large-scale natural disaster, you could argue that the Idiocracy already prevails. Or from another angle, that humans act like idiots when in large groups. In either case, the quality of the humans reproducing may be a moot point.