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You could use an productive/unproductive distinction. After some hours of photography, you have some photos which did not exist previously. After hours of DotA

You could use an productive/unproductive distinction. After some hours of photography, you have some photos which did not exist previously. After hours of DotA you have only some improved muscle memory and so on, nothing tangible. This heuristic would however rule out the learning of more "worthy" pure skills, jazz piano, unicycling etc.

icebraining 12y ago
I don't think we lack photos, though. "We have more photos than before" - doesn't sound particularly useful.
StavrosK 12y ago
Yeah, as icebraining says, photos by themselves aren't worth anything. It's the improvement to my skill in photography that's worth it (and that's as intangible as my skill in DotA, or programming).
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  I think it's just a matter of how much you value being better at photography vs. being better at DotA. If you care about improving a skill, I'd call actions towards it productive.
- JonnieCache 12y ago
  This is an interesting perspective. Is the goal of learning photography not ultimately to bring beautiful (or whatever) photos into the world? Or to achieve self-expression by doing so? To me, creative skills are not inherently meaningful until practiced. Except I suppose for improving ones self-image as a "creative person," which is ultimately a self-destructive pursuit. If one goes around "being a maker" without actually making, that distinction exists only within ones head. Seems pretty solipsistic.
  - StavrosK 12y ago
    Ah, I see what you mean. There are probably extrinsic and intrinsic components in everything. In that light, Dota is like most sports, you play because you like it, but you also produce a spectacle to fans in the process. Photography, for me, is similar. I take photos because I like the process and the output, not specifically so other people can see them. There's a tradeoff there, but I'm not sure I could say that playing basketball is useless, for example (although that has more health benefits than Dota). It's a hard question. Similarly, learning a foreign language feels very useful to me, even though it doesn't produce anything at all.
mithras 12y ago
I think adding creative skills and skills of physical mastery both make for more worthy pursuits. This would cover your jazz piano and unicycling and would exclude the Dota example. It also excludes reading fiction, which I think is not much different from watching a movie or playing a game.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Would it not also exclude learning a foreign language, though? Not to mention that it's pretty arbitrary that those skills are considered worthy, but others aren't... I don't think I can formalize it easily, sadly. I guess I hate Dota because I play it even though it frustrates me most of the time, and it doesn't leave me with any lasting skill other than itself.

icebraining 12y ago

I don't think we lack photos, though. "We have more photos than before" - doesn't sound particularly useful.

StavrosK 12y ago

Yeah, as icebraining says, photos by themselves aren't worth anything. It's the improvement to my skill in photography that's worth it (and that's as intangible as my skill in DotA, or programming).

TeMPOraL 12y ago
I think it's just a matter of how much you value being better at photography vs. being better at DotA. If you care about improving a skill, I'd call actions towards it productive.
JonnieCache 12y ago
This is an interesting perspective. Is the goal of learning photography not ultimately to bring beautiful (or whatever) photos into the world? Or to achieve self-expression by doing so? To me, creative skills are not inherently meaningful until practiced. Except I suppose for improving ones self-image as a "creative person," which is ultimately a self-destructive pursuit. If one goes around "being a maker" without actually making, that distinction exists only within ones head. Seems pretty solipsistic.
- StavrosK 12y ago
  Ah, I see what you mean. There are probably extrinsic and intrinsic components in everything. In that light, Dota is like most sports, you play because you like it, but you also produce a spectacle to fans in the process. Photography, for me, is similar. I take photos because I like the process and the output, not specifically so other people can see them. There's a tradeoff there, but I'm not sure I could say that playing basketball is useless, for example (although that has more health benefits than Dota). It's a hard question. Similarly, learning a foreign language feels very useful to me, even though it doesn't produce anything at all.

mithras 12y ago

I think adding creative skills and skills of physical mastery both make for more worthy pursuits. This would cover your jazz piano and unicycling and would exclude the Dota example. It also excludes reading fiction, which I think is not much different from watching a movie or playing a game.

StavrosK 12y ago
Would it not also exclude learning a foreign language, though? Not to mention that it's pretty arbitrary that those skills are considered worthy, but others aren't... I don't think I can formalize it easily, sadly. I guess I hate Dota because I play it even though it frustrates me most of the time, and it doesn't leave me with any lasting skill other than itself.