4 ms·

Part of my job is to prevent this. We are very good at cancelling your ticket based on airline rules if we know you wont get on a plane based on your other flig

by useful 12y ago

Part of my job is to prevent this. We are very good at cancelling your ticket based on airline rules if we know you wont get on a plane based on your other flights. Airlines ban/fine travel agents (and sometimes passengers) that abuse their rules.

tnuc 12y ago
You're not doing a very good job. Almost all my flights these days use a 3X to reduce the YQ. The economist does a fairly good job at explaining it. http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2013/11/fuel-dumping http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2013/11/fuel-dumping
- jbkkd 12y ago
  Could you tell us some more about how you do it?
  - exhilaration 12y ago
    Experienced dumpers scorn novices seeking guidance, unless the newcomers can offer hot new 3Xs in exchange.
- swimfar 12y ago
  YQ : fuel surcharge (which is apparently not related to fuel costs) 3X : method to eliminate this additional cost by adding an extra leg to the trip (which is then not taken).
- useful 12y ago
  we do a good job, the airlines don't want to pay for the arms race they create by making their rules around pricing so difficult that no single person in their business understands it (personal opinion). I believe airlines that do use our services do much better than the ones that don't (like +0.5-1% more margin). Think about how much money that is to someone like united with 38 billion in revenue. The only reason I have a job is because the reservation system is old and has all sorts of scope creep to do things that aren't really airline related but were implemented to make a sale. tl;dr I agree with the guy at the end of the story.
jrockway 12y ago
Since the people doing this don't care about frequent flyer status (which is moving towards being spend-based rather than miles-flown-based, anyway), there is nothing stopping them from using two airlines to get the best price. How good is your fine-enforcement rate against individuals?
joshontheweb 12y ago
Why do the airlines care? They got their money. Or is it just that they missed the opportunity to gouge you?
- larrydag 12y ago
  maximizing profit per passenger I suppose. There seems to be so much competition that even improving 10% on profit can mean a lot to airlines. One reason why we are seeing baggage fees now.
  - fennecfoxen 12y ago
    I believe I've read that baggage-handling expenses are estimated to run somewhere around $10 for the typical bag. Instead of giving that service away for free, they can ask for that $10 as baggage fees, reducing the price of the ticket on a price-comparison website by ($10 * avg_bags_per_pax) and attracting more business.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Because flying a jet is much more expensive that an average traveller thinks. From what I read somewhere (can't find the source right now, but the math sounds right), the total value of collected fares for a plane full of typical passengers is not enough to even tank a jet and pay the pilots and the crew. Airlines operate at a loss. Flight fares are an extremely sophisticated kind of segmented pricing (done by machines, not humans), and people cheating like this screw with the airline's ability to keep flying some-what affordable to everyone. For a detailed explanation of airline ticket pricing, take a look at this ITA presentation: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.itasoftware.com/en//pdf/ComplexityofArlineTravelPlanning_Carl_Sep-03.pdf https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.itasoftware.c...
  - nmjohn 12y ago
    > and people cheating like this screw with the airline's No. That is not cheating. The airlines offer something for sale and I buy it. If buying a third ticket makes my entire trip cheaper - it would be illogical for me not to buy it. And whether or not I use it is entirely up to me. The problem is the airlines are using inefficient and illogical pricing - for a whole host of reasons including incompetency and unwillingness to adapt to a changing marketplace. > to keep flying some-what affordable to everyone. Saying this keeps flying affordable for all is a "feel-good" argument - it has no substance.
bruceb 12y ago
Honestly how often is this actually done though? Both people getting off and also airlines then taking action against the flyer? This precludes everyone who has to check bags and everyone who is risk adverse.
fennecfoxen 12y ago
Say. Is this one of the reason planes without enough overhead bin space have been offering to check bags "to your final destination" (which would otherwise cost $10-25) instead of just tagging them as cabin-checked baggage to be picked up at the gate like I seem to recall them doing before?

by useful 12y ago

tnuc 12y ago

You're not doing a very good job. Almost all my flights these days use a 3X to reduce the YQ. The economist does a fairly good job at explaining it. http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2013/11/fuel-dumping http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2013/11/fuel-dumping

jbkkd 12y ago
Could you tell us some more about how you do it?
- exhilaration 12y ago
  Experienced dumpers scorn novices seeking guidance, unless the newcomers can offer hot new 3Xs in exchange.
swimfar 12y ago
YQ : fuel surcharge (which is apparently not related to fuel costs) 3X : method to eliminate this additional cost by adding an extra leg to the trip (which is then not taken).
useful 12y ago
we do a good job, the airlines don't want to pay for the arms race they create by making their rules around pricing so difficult that no single person in their business understands it (personal opinion). I believe airlines that do use our services do much better than the ones that don't (like +0.5-1% more margin). Think about how much money that is to someone like united with 38 billion in revenue. The only reason I have a job is because the reservation system is old and has all sorts of scope creep to do things that aren't really airline related but were implemented to make a sale. tl;dr I agree with the guy at the end of the story.

jrockway 12y ago

Since the people doing this don't care about frequent flyer status (which is moving towards being spend-based rather than miles-flown-based, anyway), there is nothing stopping them from using two airlines to get the best price. How good is your fine-enforcement rate against individuals?

joshontheweb 12y ago

Why do the airlines care? They got their money. Or is it just that they missed the opportunity to gouge you?

larrydag 12y ago
maximizing profit per passenger I suppose. There seems to be so much competition that even improving 10% on profit can mean a lot to airlines. One reason why we are seeing baggage fees now.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  I believe I've read that baggage-handling expenses are estimated to run somewhere around $10 for the typical bag. Instead of giving that service away for free, they can ask for that $10 as baggage fees, reducing the price of the ticket on a price-comparison website by ($10 * avg_bags_per_pax) and attracting more business.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
Because flying a jet is much more expensive that an average traveller thinks. From what I read somewhere (can't find the source right now, but the math sounds right), the total value of collected fares for a plane full of typical passengers is not enough to even tank a jet and pay the pilots and the crew. Airlines operate at a loss. Flight fares are an extremely sophisticated kind of segmented pricing (done by machines, not humans), and people cheating like this screw with the airline's ability to keep flying some-what affordable to everyone. For a detailed explanation of airline ticket pricing, take a look at this ITA presentation: https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.itasoftware.com/en//pdf/ComplexityofArlineTravelPlanning_Carl_Sep-03.pdf https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.itasoftware.c...
- nmjohn 12y ago
  > and people cheating like this screw with the airline's No. That is not cheating. The airlines offer something for sale and I buy it. If buying a third ticket makes my entire trip cheaper - it would be illogical for me not to buy it. And whether or not I use it is entirely up to me. The problem is the airlines are using inefficient and illogical pricing - for a whole host of reasons including incompetency and unwillingness to adapt to a changing marketplace. > to keep flying some-what affordable to everyone. Saying this keeps flying affordable for all is a "feel-good" argument - it has no substance.

bruceb 12y ago

Honestly how often is this actually done though? Both people getting off and also airlines then taking action against the flyer? This precludes everyone who has to check bags and everyone who is risk adverse.

fennecfoxen 12y ago

Say. Is this one of the reason planes without enough overhead bin space have been offering to check bags "to your final destination" (which would otherwise cost $10-25) instead of just tagging them as cabin-checked baggage to be picked up at the gate like I seem to recall them doing before?