8 ms·

I never thought people will actually come up and defend code duplication. It's definitely more than ugliness. The need to fix all the copies when they need to b

by echaozh 12y ago

I never thought people will actually come up and defend code duplication. It's definitely more than ugliness. The need to fix all the copies when they need to be updated is a bigger problem.

apta 12y ago
Or the fact that I actually saw someone on the mailing list also implement min() incorrectly due to copy-paste :) > I never thought people will actually come up and defend code duplication. Indeed. Some of the responses by some Go fans really leave me surprised to say the least.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  It was the community attitude towards generics and code distribution that eventually made me focus on Rust and D. At least those communities embrace modern computing abstractions and code distribution practices.
  - nknighthb 12y ago
    It's fine that you don't agree with our tastes, but it would be nice if you could stop coming into every Go thread and being condescending about it. Like PostgreSQL and OpenBSD, I've been permanently turned off Rust because I never want to be left at the mercy of a community that invests so much time in harassing and insulting others.
    - pjmlp 12y ago
      Except, I also talk good about Go in what concerns using it to replace C, specially in possible uses for real systems programming in a GC enabled language. After all, when compared with the first Oberon version, Go only needs a few more primitives in runtime and unsafe, Kernel and SYSTEM in Oberon respectively. This is what attracted me to the language in first place.
    - ben0x539 12y ago
      Look, we gotta keep busy while waiting for the rustc build to finish. :(
    - pyvpx 12y ago
      even if I think it's horribly naive if not flat out erroneous, I can see how someone could feel that way about OpenBSD...but Postgres?! who is harassing or insulting anyone in the Postgres world?!?!
    - Jweb_Guru 12y ago
      Please tell me where you've been harrassed and insulted by the Postgres community? Sometimes people come into the IRC channel and say something that doesn't make sense and are told it doesn't make sense, and sometimes those people get very upset, but I wouldn't classify that as harrassment. And that's basically the strongest reaction you'll ever get from anyone in the community.
      - nknighthb 12y ago
        Any active comments thread related to MySQL attracts a derailing holier-than-thou invasion telling us how dumb we are for not using PostgreSQL. PostgreSQL's advocates haven't quite reached the arrogance level of Oracle DBAs, granted, but they're a lot more active. I basically stopped using (public) IRC somewhere around 2000. I have little idea what goes on in PostgreSQL's IRC channel(s). I expect it's toxic, but I'd expect that for any project's IRC presence. Public IRC is an inherently toxic medium.
        Jweb_Guru 12y ago
        That doesn't sound like anyone I know of who actually works on PostgreSQL, and certainly not anyone I'd consider part of the PostgreSQL "community." The mailing lists, IRC channel and other forms of community communication are much more hostile to Oracle than any other RDBMS, and anyone who tries to start a flamewar there (particularly one about MySQL) is instantly shut down. I'm really sorry that you've been turned off from great technology by the actions of some overzealous Postgres users.
    - pcwalton 12y ago
      We have rules against harassing and insulting others in the Rust community, and pjmlp does not speak for us.
- spion 12y ago
  Yeah, the deficiency isn't the most harmful part - its the attitudes that come with defending that deficiency.
StandardFuture 12y ago
Now you are shifting to a editing dilemma. Code duplication is not machine code duplication which is what really matters at execution time. Reading is also easier (even for non-Go programmers at least familiar with C) without templating-like syntax.
- nine_k 12y ago
  Machine code duplication is spending a few extra megabytes on perfectly valid, if duplicate, machine code. Source code duplication is a risk of spending an hour, or maybe a day, of developer's time to detect the duplication, change it in concert in several places, with an occasional need of detecting and fixing a subtle discrepancy between the copies. RAM is $0.015 per megabyte. Developer time is $50 per hour.
  - jesstaa 12y ago
    You could also spend that developer time trying to untangle code reuse between various components, or the more subtle breakages caused by changes that don't account for the expectations of all callers. Code reuse is still a tradeoff.
    - the_af 12y ago
      It should be noted that generic code is harder to break. It is, by definition, less entangled with its callers. There are also fewer operations you can do with generic parameters, so there are fewer ways to screw up.
- the_af 12y ago
  Code duplication is definitely a programmer problem, not a machine problem. It's also a major problem. Code duplication increases the probability of programming errors, and makes maintenance harder. Any modern language with poor tools for keeping duplication at bay is suspect.
sagichmal 12y ago
> I never thought people will actually come up and defend > code duplication. DRY is a principle, not an axiom. Overapplication of DRY as axiomatic has led to much pain and suffering.
- the_af 12y ago
  Agreed! But what this means is that when you decide not to apply DRY, you need to have a reasonable justification. Code duplication in general is a bad thing.

by echaozh 12y ago

I never thought people will actually come up and defend code duplication. It's definitely more than ugliness. The need to fix all the copies when they need to be updated is a bigger problem.

apta 12y ago

Or the fact that I actually saw someone on the mailing list also implement min() incorrectly due to copy-paste :) > I never thought people will actually come up and defend code duplication. Indeed. Some of the responses by some Go fans really leave me surprised to say the least.

pjmlp 12y ago
It was the community attitude towards generics and code distribution that eventually made me focus on Rust and D. At least those communities embrace modern computing abstractions and code distribution practices.
- nknighthb 12y ago
  It's fine that you don't agree with our tastes, but it would be nice if you could stop coming into every Go thread and being condescending about it. Like PostgreSQL and OpenBSD, I've been permanently turned off Rust because I never want to be left at the mercy of a community that invests so much time in harassing and insulting others.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    Except, I also talk good about Go in what concerns using it to replace C, specially in possible uses for real systems programming in a GC enabled language. After all, when compared with the first Oberon version, Go only needs a few more primitives in runtime and unsafe, Kernel and SYSTEM in Oberon respectively. This is what attracted me to the language in first place.
  - ben0x539 12y ago
    Look, we gotta keep busy while waiting for the rustc build to finish. :(
  - pyvpx 12y ago
    even if I think it's horribly naive if not flat out erroneous, I can see how someone could feel that way about OpenBSD...but Postgres?! who is harassing or insulting anyone in the Postgres world?!?!
  - Jweb_Guru 12y ago
    Please tell me where you've been harrassed and insulted by the Postgres community? Sometimes people come into the IRC channel and say something that doesn't make sense and are told it doesn't make sense, and sometimes those people get very upset, but I wouldn't classify that as harrassment. And that's basically the strongest reaction you'll ever get from anyone in the community.
    - nknighthb 12y ago
      Any active comments thread related to MySQL attracts a derailing holier-than-thou invasion telling us how dumb we are for not using PostgreSQL. PostgreSQL's advocates haven't quite reached the arrogance level of Oracle DBAs, granted, but they're a lot more active. I basically stopped using (public) IRC somewhere around 2000. I have little idea what goes on in PostgreSQL's IRC channel(s). I expect it's toxic, but I'd expect that for any project's IRC presence. Public IRC is an inherently toxic medium.
      - Jweb_Guru 12y ago
        That doesn't sound like anyone I know of who actually works on PostgreSQL, and certainly not anyone I'd consider part of the PostgreSQL "community." The mailing lists, IRC channel and other forms of community communication are much more hostile to Oracle than any other RDBMS, and anyone who tries to start a flamewar there (particularly one about MySQL) is instantly shut down. I'm really sorry that you've been turned off from great technology by the actions of some overzealous Postgres users.
  - pcwalton 12y ago
    We have rules against harassing and insulting others in the Rust community, and pjmlp does not speak for us.
spion 12y ago
Yeah, the deficiency isn't the most harmful part - its the attitudes that come with defending that deficiency.

StandardFuture 12y ago

Now you are shifting to a editing dilemma. Code duplication is not machine code duplication which is what really matters at execution time. Reading is also easier (even for non-Go programmers at least familiar with C) without templating-like syntax.

nine_k 12y ago
Machine code duplication is spending a few extra megabytes on perfectly valid, if duplicate, machine code. Source code duplication is a risk of spending an hour, or maybe a day, of developer's time to detect the duplication, change it in concert in several places, with an occasional need of detecting and fixing a subtle discrepancy between the copies. RAM is $0.015 per megabyte. Developer time is $50 per hour.
- jesstaa 12y ago
  You could also spend that developer time trying to untangle code reuse between various components, or the more subtle breakages caused by changes that don't account for the expectations of all callers. Code reuse is still a tradeoff.
  - the_af 12y ago
    It should be noted that generic code is harder to break. It is, by definition, less entangled with its callers. There are also fewer operations you can do with generic parameters, so there are fewer ways to screw up.
the_af 12y ago
Code duplication is definitely a programmer problem, not a machine problem. It's also a major problem. Code duplication increases the probability of programming errors, and makes maintenance harder. Any modern language with poor tools for keeping duplication at bay is suspect.

sagichmal 12y ago

> I never thought people will actually come up and defend > code duplication. DRY is a principle, not an axiom. Overapplication of DRY as axiomatic has led to much pain and suffering.

the_af 12y ago
Agreed! But what this means is that when you decide not to apply DRY, you need to have a reasonable justification. Code duplication in general is a bad thing.