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While small firms might lack the technical expertise or budget to protect themselves, large companies have a different problem. Look at Google, Apple or Facebo

by sauere 12y ago

While small firms might lack the technical expertise or budget to protect themselves, large companies have a different problem. Look at Google, Apple or Facebook. There is just sooooo much different attack space. Thousand of servers, thousand of employees that could be bribed, hundreds of third-party people they rely on (Content Delivery, ISPs, Colocations/Datacenters, Hardware suppliers....). A single NSA-controlled computer in your network is a starting point to take over the rest of the network. /edit: Even if they straight up tell them they have a "bug" in their network, how the hell would they ever find it? I could be a switch, it could be a VoIP phone, it might have been a software-package that was injected with malicious code _while_ downloading, it could be a RaspberryPi camouflaged as some other device, it could be a employees computer, it could be a network-printer, it could be a hijaked VPN account. It could be anything. I just don't see how there is any way to protect yourself against this, even with a dedicated security team and a big budget.

scientist1642 12y ago
Could not agree you more.
larrys 12y ago
"Thousand of servers, thousand of employees that could be bribed" A great point but I would argue that there might be enough "n" at a company with only, say, 500 employees. On a different note, I'm not sure the best angle of attack is to bribe anyone. After all someone bribed is also someone who can disclose info. Or could even get hacked themselves whereby someone else would discover that they are cooperating and release or expose that fact. For many reasons. Could be a roommate, an angry spouse or girlfriend etc. And after all a bribe is also money so there is a money trail if large enough and/or not paid in cash. And some people just like to talk and brag. Secrecy wise, the less people that they were to involve the less chance of a leak. At least one reason that top secret programs have limited people that even know they are going on, right?
- mschuster91 12y ago
  > After all someone bribed is also someone who can disclose info. Or could even get hacked themselves whereby someone else would discover that they are cooperating and release or expose that fact. For many reasons. Could be a roommate, an angry spouse or girlfriend etc. And after all a bribe is also money so there is a money trail if large enough and/or not paid in cash. And some people just like to talk and brag. The NSA/FBI/DEA can and have used tactics like extortion (e.g. for planted drugs, money laundering charges etc.) to make people cooperate. It's like a bribe just without the risk of exposing.
  - Natsu 12y ago
    > The NSA/FBI/DEA can and have used tactics like extortion Would you cite sources for that?
    - gaadd33 12y ago
      Is blackmail good enough? http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-your-end-is.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo...
    - mschuster91 12y ago
      Add a CIA to this and look at all the black ops they have either admitted or been exposed. If any of the three-letter agencies (or, for that matter, any big govt agency) uses these kinds of tactic, then there is no reason at all to believe other branches of govt refrain from doing the same shit. Once, a long time ago, that last sentence would make me a tinfoil-hat-wearer... sad that this is not the case anymore.
      - Natsu 12y ago
        I know what you mean, hence the request.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  The key to bribery (well, heck the key to keeping members of any "evil" organization's mouths shut), is to find something they are really really embarrassed about, some sexual fetish, something secret about their family. Or, promise to absolutely put them in prison over some crime they committed. For the later, ever better entrap them to commit the crime first and record it. All that coupled with a reward -- if they need money, offer money (maybe in the form of a consulting business in a NSA front company with this purpose in mind).
  - korzun 12y ago
    That's not how bribery works. > is to find something they are really really embarrassed about I don't think NSA needs to employ high school level tactics. If they want to pin something, they will. True or not.
    - madaxe_again 12y ago
      Oh boy. Oh yes it is. You don't bribe someone for information unless you have dirt on them, otherwise there's nothing to stop them turning traitor on you. If you don't have dirt on them, you just invent some. Doesn't matter. People don't fact-check - if the media says it, it must be true.
      - korzun 12y ago
        > You don't bribe someone for information unless you have dirt on them That's not a bribe. Learn the difference between strong-arm tactics such as blackmail and bribes. Two completely different approaches.
        madaxe_again 12y ago
        The two almost always go hand in hand, unless you're talking about bribing a traffic cop - which we're not. Patronising dickhead.
        12y ago
- borplk 12y ago
  They don't have to "bribe" anyone. They can easily plant their own agents inside the company as employees. ("undercover agent" getting a job at the company like a regular person) I'd be very very surprised if they already haven't done it.
  - lawnchair_larry 12y ago
    http://gizmodo.com/5586694/the-12th-russian-spy-worked-at-microsoft http://gizmodo.com/5586694/the-12th-russian-spy-worked-at-mi...

by sauere 12y ago

scientist1642 12y ago

Could not agree you more.

larrys 12y ago

"Thousand of servers, thousand of employees that could be bribed" A great point but I would argue that there might be enough "n" at a company with only, say, 500 employees. On a different note, I'm not sure the best angle of attack is to bribe anyone. After all someone bribed is also someone who can disclose info. Or could even get hacked themselves whereby someone else would discover that they are cooperating and release or expose that fact. For many reasons. Could be a roommate, an angry spouse or girlfriend etc. And after all a bribe is also money so there is a money trail if large enough and/or not paid in cash. And some people just like to talk and brag. Secrecy wise, the less people that they were to involve the less chance of a leak. At least one reason that top secret programs have limited people that even know they are going on, right?

mschuster91 12y ago
> After all someone bribed is also someone who can disclose info. Or could even get hacked themselves whereby someone else would discover that they are cooperating and release or expose that fact. For many reasons. Could be a roommate, an angry spouse or girlfriend etc. And after all a bribe is also money so there is a money trail if large enough and/or not paid in cash. And some people just like to talk and brag. The NSA/FBI/DEA can and have used tactics like extortion (e.g. for planted drugs, money laundering charges etc.) to make people cooperate. It's like a bribe just without the risk of exposing.
- Natsu 12y ago
  > The NSA/FBI/DEA can and have used tactics like extortion Would you cite sources for that?
  - gaadd33 12y ago
    Is blackmail good enough? http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-your-end-is.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/king-like-all-frauds-yo...
  - mschuster91 12y ago
    Add a CIA to this and look at all the black ops they have either admitted or been exposed. If any of the three-letter agencies (or, for that matter, any big govt agency) uses these kinds of tactic, then there is no reason at all to believe other branches of govt refrain from doing the same shit. Once, a long time ago, that last sentence would make me a tinfoil-hat-wearer... sad that this is not the case anymore.
    - Natsu 12y ago
      I know what you mean, hence the request.
rdtsc 12y ago
The key to bribery (well, heck the key to keeping members of any "evil" organization's mouths shut), is to find something they are really really embarrassed about, some sexual fetish, something secret about their family. Or, promise to absolutely put them in prison over some crime they committed. For the later, ever better entrap them to commit the crime first and record it. All that coupled with a reward -- if they need money, offer money (maybe in the form of a consulting business in a NSA front company with this purpose in mind).
- korzun 12y ago
  That's not how bribery works. > is to find something they are really really embarrassed about I don't think NSA needs to employ high school level tactics. If they want to pin something, they will. True or not.
  - madaxe_again 12y ago
    Oh boy. Oh yes it is. You don't bribe someone for information unless you have dirt on them, otherwise there's nothing to stop them turning traitor on you. If you don't have dirt on them, you just invent some. Doesn't matter. People don't fact-check - if the media says it, it must be true.
    - korzun 12y ago
      > You don't bribe someone for information unless you have dirt on them That's not a bribe. Learn the difference between strong-arm tactics such as blackmail and bribes. Two completely different approaches.
      - madaxe_again 12y ago
        The two almost always go hand in hand, unless you're talking about bribing a traffic cop - which we're not. Patronising dickhead.
        12y ago
borplk 12y ago
They don't have to "bribe" anyone. They can easily plant their own agents inside the company as employees. ("undercover agent" getting a job at the company like a regular person) I'd be very very surprised if they already haven't done it.
- lawnchair_larry 12y ago
  http://gizmodo.com/5586694/the-12th-russian-spy-worked-at-microsoft http://gizmodo.com/5586694/the-12th-russian-spy-worked-at-mi...