6 ms·

First of all, congratulations for finishing your game and getting some success with it. A few thoughts: - 6000 registered users in a couple of days is hardly

First of all, congratulations for finishing your game and getting some success with it. A few thoughts: - 6000 registered users in a couple of days is hardly going viral. It's a promising start but too early to use that adjective (and the numbers are also pretty low). - The fact that you are trying to sell something you worked on for more than a year just because you can't keep up with the email volume is... suspicious. Especially if the income estimates you give in that article are accurate. Why not just ignore your inbox for a few weeks and come back to it later? - I think the answer to the question above is obvious: you know your success is temporary and you're trying to cash out while you can. Sorry for my cynicism, just being honest.

napsterbr 12y ago
Sorry for your honesty. OP here. Some people don't think only on money. I created this game as a fun project, for fun, without expecting any revenue. (If I did, it would be pay-to-win). I tried to kill myself last year a few days after I gave a talk at a FOSS conference. Some people can't handle pressure, email volume or too much social contact, specially if they have something called social anxiety, depression, and other things that I do. I understand your suspicious.. However you are assuming I'm a crazy-for-money guy like... many people. If no one buys the game I'll probably shut it down. For my own mental sanity.
- jamesbrownuhh 12y ago
  Don't panic. You've made a great thing and credit is due, but at the same time you're in the middle of what could just be a brief peak of interest. The odds are good that it won't always be like this (unless you want it to.) Your graph reminded me of a scene from The Simpsons where 'Disco Stu' presents a graph entitled "Sales of Disco Records, 1976-1977" showing a massive upward swing. Seeking investment for his idea, Stu indicates "If these trends continue... aaayyyy!" Not trying to talk you down at all - but if this level of interest is unwelcome to you, the chances are good that it will get better. Most things run out of momentum pretty quickly if you're not actively keeping the ball bouncing.
- somberi 12y ago
  Good work Renato and credit to plugging at it for 2 years. If the social friction this game has bought your life is the reason you are selling it, let me ask you a question: What happens if you cold turkey on the game for the next few months? No answering emails, no bug fixes, nothing. If the game continues to run well and give the players some joy (keeping the money aspect aside for now), why not just let it be?
  - napsterbr 12y ago
    Thanks! I guess keeping it "as is", without any support, is better than shutting it down, but I don't know if I could simply ignore it. I would try it before (if) shutting down, though.
    - noxn 12y ago
      You could also open source it, if the sale fails. People seem interested and people might run with it.
      - jarcane 12y ago
        Yes. As someone with anxiety and depression issues myself I sympathize with the sudden scariness of something like this, but it would be a shame if it just went dark because you have obviously put a lot of work into it. If you do decide to shutter the server, set up a Github repo and mirror your code under a licence like GPL3, then maybe at least someone else can pick it up and keep sharing more cool stuff with it. It's what I did when I got out of roleplaying games.
    - yazaddaruvala 12y ago
      Also instead of the added pressure of finding a business model, you may want to put up a "Donate" button. Ideally, if you put up a graph of your costs per month (including what you feel you should get paid to work on the project) and a graph of donations per month, or something, then people who enjoy your game will be smart enough to help support it financially for you.
- roghummal 12y ago
  Shut it down and release the source.
  - Pingo5 12y ago
    i agree with this. if you can't find a seller, at least give it to someone for free. i'd rather have it out there than gone forever.
- otakucode 12y ago
  If you've not already done so, you should really get with a doctor. I grew up with social anxiety (didn't get diagnosed until senior year in college) and know how bad it can be - feeling like you just got punched in the gut for days at a time is not something anyone should have to live with. And you don't have to, there are various treatment options that a good doctor will help you navigate. Getting treatment can really change your life for the better. I wish you the best of luck!
  - napsterbr 12y ago
    Thanks!
  - dalacv 12y ago
    "I grew up with social anxiety"..."diagnosed" Remember when that used to be called 'being shy'?
    - markeroon 12y ago
      No, I don't remember that. And I really hope that you're not a founder.
    - jawngee 12y ago
      Social anxiety != being shy. Social anxiety is a very debilitating and tortuous thing, as is any form of chronic anxiety.
    - jtheory 12y ago
      I grew up "shy", and while it was sometimes stressful, there were definitely no suicide attempts, panic attacks, etc. involved. It's insensitive/cruel to mock someone's diagnosis when you know next to nothing about the details. There are larger arguments about overdiagnosis in the US, etc., which is all interesting, but if you're talking to an individual about painful experiences in their past, bear in mind that generalities cannot become rules.
    - bdcravens 12y ago
      I have Cystic Fibrosis, and therefore I cough a lot. A lot of people cough. CF also makes me skinny. A lot of people are skinny. I get tons of "advice" on how to reduce my cough or what to do to gain weight, but most of it is naivety at best, stupidity if they know I have a bona fide condition.
- mattl 12y ago
  1-800-273-TALK is the nation suicide helpline in the US. http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org Please don't kill yourself over a game. Release it AGPL and be done if you have to.
  - mershad 12y ago
    OP says he goes to U Winnipeg, which isn't in the US. OP, you probably see Klinic every day on your way to school. They have trained counselors 24/7 at: Manitoba Suicide Line 1-877-435-7170 toll free 24 hours http://www.reasontolive.ca/about-us http://www.reasontolive.ca/about-us
- kathrinalewis 12y ago
  This hacker experience game with 6000 registered users in a day is going too much viral. Your have really a great taught, definitely there are alot of people who don't care about money what they want is just success as they are not greedy people. I personally say that you have made a great fun project whether you earn money or not or you shutdown the game.
- kathrinalewis 12y ago
  Further i also believe that the day will come when you will earn alot of respect for what you are doing today.
- rmetzler 12y ago
  It's free to play, you don't owe anyone anything. If you get emails and don't feel like answering, just ignore them. If you get praise, print it out so you can look at it whenever you feel down.
  - eric_bullington 12y ago
    This is the correct answer. OP, you really shouldn't feel bad about not responding to people emailing you about a free-to-play game. Besides, most of them are probably just writing to tell you how much they like it, or wanting you to partner with them. You don't have to answer any of them. Just put up an autoresponder explaining that this is a free game and you're a university student and can't respond to email. I mean, this is what Google does and many/most people love Google products.
  - bonestamp2 12y ago
    Some people do care about the experience they provide, whether people are paying for it or not. Their pride in the game is important. They feel it reflects poorly on them if they're not providing good service. I can see how this would provide unwanted pressure when you're trying to study hard.
  - jtheory 12y ago
    This is totally logical, but psychologically hard. When I was a student I had totally-free online stuff I built lead to a stream of requests for upgrades, additions, bugfixes, etc. -- and the unreasonable ones are easy to discard, but some requests would be polite, friendly, and include offers to help. I'd agree to make the seemingly-small tweak, or accept the help, and then realize after a week that I didn't really have the time, or that my TO-DO list was being pulled completely out of whack.... Better to not publish your email address at all, perhaps, or make very clear that emails may be eventually read but very likely not responded to.
  - AznHisoka 12y ago
    Yep, or put up a paywall. Want to get answer to a question, pay $50/hour. Don't want to pay? Then deal with it. it's a FREE game.
- calibraxis 12y ago
  Hey, please do what you need to be healthy! Great game BTW! (I know some with social anxiety, and it sucks that society is so dysfunctional that we don't make simple accommodations which help us all realize our potentials. Hope all goes well for you.)
- menriquez 12y ago
  whoa...stop the presses.. You tried to kill yourself after a conference?? Listen, you need to stop programming for a bit and get some professional counselling IMMEDIATELY...admitting you actually tried to kill yourself in a public forum is a huge red flag. Please, put all this stuff on the back burner and take care of your issues...
- heeringamoos 12y ago
  Remember, every day you're out there doing things you love is a victory. Do whatever is best for yourself. I agree with others, maybe you should just put the game on rest and do something else for a while.
- tinco 12y ago
  Hi, I think trying to sell the game is a pretty good idea. Since you probably don't have much experience in selling software (services), just a small tip: I read in your article that you offer a bit of support. If you manage get to make a deal with someone, do make sure that in your agreement you explicitly mention for how long you will offer support. Make it nice and short, like 3-6 months, perhaps just a few weeks. If you are tired now, you will only become more tired if your support of the project goes on, and it will keep worrying you if there's always someone who contacts you about things of your project. If the amount offered justifies it, perhaps find out if your university can get you in touch with a nice contract lawyer that can go over the transaction for you, but don't worry about it too much. There's not that much can go wrong, as long as the agreement is clear that everything is supplied 'as is' and the support is properly time-constrained and makes no promises beyond 'best effort', and especially if the other party is allowed to inspect the goods before receiving them, not much can go wrong. If you are the worrying type, you could put the funds received in a savings account and not touch them for a year or so, so you'll always have funds to settle any disagreement.
- kordless 12y ago
  > Please keep in mind I spent two and a half years building this game as a side project, so make a serious offer. I hear you are stressed out by dealing with the resulting success of your game and are willing to shutter it to save your sanity. I also hear you want someone to 'take you seriously' in making an offer for the game. Those two statements, if I am hearing you correctly, are in direct logical conflict with each other and may lead to causing you more suffering. The technical term is cognitive dissonance, literally believing two things at once. In your case you appear to hold the opinion that the game is worth something and you must be paid for it to release it, yet you thinking about continuing to manage it will lead to a loss of sanity. Resolving this logical dilemma sounds impossible, unless someone pays you a lot of money or you really intend to shutter it. I would suggest that if you intended to shutter it because of suffering reasons, you would have already done so by now. That may be related to the fact those-who-create live to do so. I am one of those people! If that is the case, you must face the fear of continuing the game's existence. Attempting to face a fear you are capable of facing will help move you forward past this event. Perhaps Open Source it, or take the other suggestions offered in the thread. I appreciate the fact you took the time to tell us about it. Creating brings joy. Remember, your suffering is your choice. Only you can reduce it. Only you can wake up in the morning and be grateful you are here in this reality and then attempt to reduce your suffering by facing your fears for the day. Nobody else will do this for you as we're all trying to do it for ourselves each day. Best of luck to you, my friend; today is the first day of the rest of your life!
- wiex 12y ago
  I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game
- wiex 12y ago
  * 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
- wiex 12y ago
  * 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
- wiex 12y ago
  * 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
- wiex 12y ago
  * 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
- bdickason 12y ago
  Whatever happens with your game, I hope you realize that a lot of people enjoy what you've built. You are bringing good stuff into this world and the world is a better place because you're here. If you ever start to feel down or like life is not worth living, email me - address in my profile. I'll try to do what I can to help.
namenotrequired 12y ago
> 6000 registered users in a couple of days is hardly going viral Going viral isn't a certain number or speed of adoption. It's a method of adoption. If most of these members joined because of referral by other friends, and they in turn are continuing to invite others, then yes, it's going viral.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- personZ 12y ago
  Nothing has demonstrated that it's referrals by friends -- it saw a small amount of attention on HN, and from that the inevitable reposts on Reddit. Further if the definition were so limited, then we could say that everything has "gone viral", making the phrase meaningless -- instead there is some level of scale necessary, which I don't think this level of success meets. HN is a finicky, short-attention span beast, by design. A front page of HN, and tens of thousands of uniques, often yields zero residual "value" (seriously, zero. The most lauded piece on here with endless upvotes and you're lucky if a single reader reposts it anywhere else or mentions it, beyond the karma seekers who stick it on /r/programming). I don't get this post. 6000 unique visitors in no universe yields thousands of emails (again, due to the short attention span probably 5000 clicked back ten seconds in), unless the game itself generates enormous amounts of operator notifications and mechanical turk type behavior, in which case the game is unsustainable for anyone. The model of getting a project to some level of success and then offloading it is an entirely reasonable one (though really the tough luck story I think undermines the pitch), though at the current level of success this project is, sadly, currently close to worthless. Having a very temporary spike of a niche user base is not at all sustainable.
- zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
  > Going viral isn't a certain number or speed of adoption. Going viral is certainly speed of adoption. By definition. It's not an absolute number, it's a growth pattern over time. Two days is not enough to decide that something went viral. 6,000 registered users is a very low number, even if it happens within a few hours: a simple exposure on the front page of HN or Reddit, or even better, being featured on Google Play or the iTunes store, will result in user sign ups in the order of the 100k's.

napsterbr 12y ago

Sorry for your honesty. OP here. Some people don't think only on money. I created this game as a fun project, for fun, without expecting any revenue. (If I did, it would be pay-to-win). I tried to kill myself last year a few days after I gave a talk at a FOSS conference. Some people can't handle pressure, email volume or too much social contact, specially if they have something called social anxiety, depression, and other things that I do. I understand your suspicious.. However you are assuming I'm a crazy-for-money guy like... many people. If no one buys the game I'll probably shut it down. For my own mental sanity.

jamesbrownuhh 12y ago
Don't panic. You've made a great thing and credit is due, but at the same time you're in the middle of what could just be a brief peak of interest. The odds are good that it won't always be like this (unless you want it to.) Your graph reminded me of a scene from The Simpsons where 'Disco Stu' presents a graph entitled "Sales of Disco Records, 1976-1977" showing a massive upward swing. Seeking investment for his idea, Stu indicates "If these trends continue... aaayyyy!" Not trying to talk you down at all - but if this level of interest is unwelcome to you, the chances are good that it will get better. Most things run out of momentum pretty quickly if you're not actively keeping the ball bouncing.
somberi 12y ago
Good work Renato and credit to plugging at it for 2 years. If the social friction this game has bought your life is the reason you are selling it, let me ask you a question: What happens if you cold turkey on the game for the next few months? No answering emails, no bug fixes, nothing. If the game continues to run well and give the players some joy (keeping the money aspect aside for now), why not just let it be?
- napsterbr 12y ago
  Thanks! I guess keeping it "as is", without any support, is better than shutting it down, but I don't know if I could simply ignore it. I would try it before (if) shutting down, though.
  - noxn 12y ago
    You could also open source it, if the sale fails. People seem interested and people might run with it.
    - jarcane 12y ago
      Yes. As someone with anxiety and depression issues myself I sympathize with the sudden scariness of something like this, but it would be a shame if it just went dark because you have obviously put a lot of work into it. If you do decide to shutter the server, set up a Github repo and mirror your code under a licence like GPL3, then maybe at least someone else can pick it up and keep sharing more cool stuff with it. It's what I did when I got out of roleplaying games.
  - yazaddaruvala 12y ago
    Also instead of the added pressure of finding a business model, you may want to put up a "Donate" button. Ideally, if you put up a graph of your costs per month (including what you feel you should get paid to work on the project) and a graph of donations per month, or something, then people who enjoy your game will be smart enough to help support it financially for you.
roghummal 12y ago
Shut it down and release the source.
- Pingo5 12y ago
  i agree with this. if you can't find a seller, at least give it to someone for free. i'd rather have it out there than gone forever.
otakucode 12y ago
If you've not already done so, you should really get with a doctor. I grew up with social anxiety (didn't get diagnosed until senior year in college) and know how bad it can be - feeling like you just got punched in the gut for days at a time is not something anyone should have to live with. And you don't have to, there are various treatment options that a good doctor will help you navigate. Getting treatment can really change your life for the better. I wish you the best of luck!
- napsterbr 12y ago
  Thanks!
- dalacv 12y ago
  "I grew up with social anxiety"..."diagnosed" Remember when that used to be called 'being shy'?
  - markeroon 12y ago
    No, I don't remember that. And I really hope that you're not a founder.
  - jawngee 12y ago
    Social anxiety != being shy. Social anxiety is a very debilitating and tortuous thing, as is any form of chronic anxiety.
  - jtheory 12y ago
    I grew up "shy", and while it was sometimes stressful, there were definitely no suicide attempts, panic attacks, etc. involved. It's insensitive/cruel to mock someone's diagnosis when you know next to nothing about the details. There are larger arguments about overdiagnosis in the US, etc., which is all interesting, but if you're talking to an individual about painful experiences in their past, bear in mind that generalities cannot become rules.
  - bdcravens 12y ago
    I have Cystic Fibrosis, and therefore I cough a lot. A lot of people cough. CF also makes me skinny. A lot of people are skinny. I get tons of "advice" on how to reduce my cough or what to do to gain weight, but most of it is naivety at best, stupidity if they know I have a bona fide condition.
mattl 12y ago
1-800-273-TALK is the nation suicide helpline in the US. http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org Please don't kill yourself over a game. Release it AGPL and be done if you have to.
- mershad 12y ago
  OP says he goes to U Winnipeg, which isn't in the US. OP, you probably see Klinic every day on your way to school. They have trained counselors 24/7 at: Manitoba Suicide Line 1-877-435-7170 toll free 24 hours http://www.reasontolive.ca/about-us http://www.reasontolive.ca/about-us
kathrinalewis 12y ago
This hacker experience game with 6000 registered users in a day is going too much viral. Your have really a great taught, definitely there are alot of people who don't care about money what they want is just success as they are not greedy people. I personally say that you have made a great fun project whether you earn money or not or you shutdown the game.
kathrinalewis 12y ago
Further i also believe that the day will come when you will earn alot of respect for what you are doing today.
rmetzler 12y ago
It's free to play, you don't owe anyone anything. If you get emails and don't feel like answering, just ignore them. If you get praise, print it out so you can look at it whenever you feel down.
- eric_bullington 12y ago
  This is the correct answer. OP, you really shouldn't feel bad about not responding to people emailing you about a free-to-play game. Besides, most of them are probably just writing to tell you how much they like it, or wanting you to partner with them. You don't have to answer any of them. Just put up an autoresponder explaining that this is a free game and you're a university student and can't respond to email. I mean, this is what Google does and many/most people love Google products.
- bonestamp2 12y ago
  Some people do care about the experience they provide, whether people are paying for it or not. Their pride in the game is important. They feel it reflects poorly on them if they're not providing good service. I can see how this would provide unwanted pressure when you're trying to study hard.
- jtheory 12y ago
  This is totally logical, but psychologically hard. When I was a student I had totally-free online stuff I built lead to a stream of requests for upgrades, additions, bugfixes, etc. -- and the unreasonable ones are easy to discard, but some requests would be polite, friendly, and include offers to help. I'd agree to make the seemingly-small tweak, or accept the help, and then realize after a week that I didn't really have the time, or that my TO-DO list was being pulled completely out of whack.... Better to not publish your email address at all, perhaps, or make very clear that emails may be eventually read but very likely not responded to.
- AznHisoka 12y ago
  Yep, or put up a paywall. Want to get answer to a question, pay $50/hour. Don't want to pay? Then deal with it. it's a FREE game.
calibraxis 12y ago
Hey, please do what you need to be healthy! Great game BTW! (I know some with social anxiety, and it sucks that society is so dysfunctional that we don't make simple accommodations which help us all realize our potentials. Hope all goes well for you.)
menriquez 12y ago
whoa...stop the presses.. You tried to kill yourself after a conference?? Listen, you need to stop programming for a bit and get some professional counselling IMMEDIATELY...admitting you actually tried to kill yourself in a public forum is a huge red flag. Please, put all this stuff on the back burner and take care of your issues...
heeringamoos 12y ago
Remember, every day you're out there doing things you love is a victory. Do whatever is best for yourself. I agree with others, maybe you should just put the game on rest and do something else for a while.
tinco 12y ago
Hi, I think trying to sell the game is a pretty good idea. Since you probably don't have much experience in selling software (services), just a small tip: I read in your article that you offer a bit of support. If you manage get to make a deal with someone, do make sure that in your agreement you explicitly mention for how long you will offer support. Make it nice and short, like 3-6 months, perhaps just a few weeks. If you are tired now, you will only become more tired if your support of the project goes on, and it will keep worrying you if there's always someone who contacts you about things of your project. If the amount offered justifies it, perhaps find out if your university can get you in touch with a nice contract lawyer that can go over the transaction for you, but don't worry about it too much. There's not that much can go wrong, as long as the agreement is clear that everything is supplied 'as is' and the support is properly time-constrained and makes no promises beyond 'best effort', and especially if the other party is allowed to inspect the goods before receiving them, not much can go wrong. If you are the worrying type, you could put the funds received in a savings account and not touch them for a year or so, so you'll always have funds to settle any disagreement.
kordless 12y ago
> Please keep in mind I spent two and a half years building this game as a side project, so make a serious offer. I hear you are stressed out by dealing with the resulting success of your game and are willing to shutter it to save your sanity. I also hear you want someone to 'take you seriously' in making an offer for the game. Those two statements, if I am hearing you correctly, are in direct logical conflict with each other and may lead to causing you more suffering. The technical term is cognitive dissonance, literally believing two things at once. In your case you appear to hold the opinion that the game is worth something and you must be paid for it to release it, yet you thinking about continuing to manage it will lead to a loss of sanity. Resolving this logical dilemma sounds impossible, unless someone pays you a lot of money or you really intend to shutter it. I would suggest that if you intended to shutter it because of suffering reasons, you would have already done so by now. That may be related to the fact those-who-create live to do so. I am one of those people! If that is the case, you must face the fear of continuing the game's existence. Attempting to face a fear you are capable of facing will help move you forward past this event. Perhaps Open Source it, or take the other suggestions offered in the thread. I appreciate the fact you took the time to tell us about it. Creating brings joy. Remember, your suffering is your choice. Only you can reduce it. Only you can wake up in the morning and be grateful you are here in this reality and then attempt to reduce your suffering by facing your fears for the day. Nobody else will do this for you as we're all trying to do it for ourselves each day. Best of luck to you, my friend; today is the first day of the rest of your life!
wiex 12y ago
I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game
wiex 12y ago
* 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
wiex 12y ago
* 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
wiex 12y ago
* 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
wiex 12y ago
* 1 point by wiex 6 minutes ago | link | edit | delete I am going to spend $71 on it add me on skype: messagepromc I love the game reply
bdickason 12y ago
Whatever happens with your game, I hope you realize that a lot of people enjoy what you've built. You are bringing good stuff into this world and the world is a better place because you're here. If you ever start to feel down or like life is not worth living, email me - address in my profile. I'll try to do what I can to help.

namenotrequired 12y ago

> 6000 registered users in a couple of days is hardly going viral Going viral isn't a certain number or speed of adoption. It's a method of adoption. If most of these members joined because of referral by other friends, and they in turn are continuing to invite others, then yes, it's going viral.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
personZ 12y ago
Nothing has demonstrated that it's referrals by friends -- it saw a small amount of attention on HN, and from that the inevitable reposts on Reddit. Further if the definition were so limited, then we could say that everything has "gone viral", making the phrase meaningless -- instead there is some level of scale necessary, which I don't think this level of success meets. HN is a finicky, short-attention span beast, by design. A front page of HN, and tens of thousands of uniques, often yields zero residual "value" (seriously, zero. The most lauded piece on here with endless upvotes and you're lucky if a single reader reposts it anywhere else or mentions it, beyond the karma seekers who stick it on /r/programming). I don't get this post. 6000 unique visitors in no universe yields thousands of emails (again, due to the short attention span probably 5000 clicked back ten seconds in), unless the game itself generates enormous amounts of operator notifications and mechanical turk type behavior, in which case the game is unsustainable for anyone. The model of getting a project to some level of success and then offloading it is an entirely reasonable one (though really the tough luck story I think undermines the pitch), though at the current level of success this project is, sadly, currently close to worthless. Having a very temporary spike of a niche user base is not at all sustainable.
zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
> Going viral isn't a certain number or speed of adoption. Going viral is certainly speed of adoption. By definition. It's not an absolute number, it's a growth pattern over time. Two days is not enough to decide that something went viral. 6,000 registered users is a very low number, even if it happens within a few hours: a simple exposure on the front page of HN or Reddit, or even better, being featured on Google Play or the iTunes store, will result in user sign ups in the order of the 100k's.