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Good timing. It happens I'm going to Ashland, OR next week. The town is famous for the Shakespeare Festival (world-class performances) and Lithia Park. The l
by jrapdx3 12y ago
Good timing. It happens I'm going to Ashland, OR next week. The town is famous for the Shakespeare Festival (world-class performances) and Lithia Park. The latter is a natural lithium containing mineral water source. It's easy to sample, just a short stroll from the Elizabethan theater, a drinking fountain bubbles up the spring water.
ATM I'm not sure of the exact concentration of the minerals, but from prior years, saying it tastes really bad isn't nearly a strong enough description. Other water supplies containing Li may be quite acceptable, but except for Ashland palatability isn't the main issue.
In the article, the cited concentration of Li at 0.170 mg/L, if referring to Li+ ion alone, the water supply would actually contain ~1/100 of the lowest therapeutic dose of Li. Medicinally Li is provided as the carbonate salt. A minimal dose is 300 mg/day, which contains ~ 30 mg elemental Li. Consuming Li-fortified water 2 L/d -> 0.34 mg Li or >1/100 of low medicinal Li dose .
Of course in nature Li is always in ionic or combined form, but the article didn't give details about Li concentrations, so it muddies the water trying to parse Li effects in any number of ways.
Here in Portland OR, city water is sourced high up near Mt. Hood from condensation of atmospheric water (mist or rain) and piped the short distance to the city. It's basically like distilled water, very low in mineral content. So low in fact, the federal government insists that alkaline minerals are added to the supply since distilled water is acidic and leaches lead from old plumbing.
However, Portland has among the lowest suicide attempt rates in the US. Our neighbor to the north, Seattle WA is among the highest, along with Salt Lake City UT and Dallas TX.
http://socialcapitalreview.org/seattle-region-ranks-2nd-of-33-in-u-s-suicide-attempts/ http://socialcapitalreview.org/seattle-region-ranks-2nd-of-3...
Other data would show something different re: suicidal behavior but contradictory data sets are kind of the point.
Li could be a factor but I'm skeptical. We must remain alert to the hazards of drawing conclusions from population-based observational data. In this domain, experimental studies are difficult to design and conduct, but further study to narrow down confounding factors would be useful.
What I do know is water purity is sacred here. The last fluoridation campaign failed by about a 3:1 lopsided vote.
What chance would there be of adding lithium to our water supply? I think it would not be voted in.
- klodolph 12y ago> distilled water is acidic Distilled water is neutral, it is the reference point against which acidic and alkaline solutions are compared. Technically one could argue that it is acidic, because any concentration of [H+] is acidic, but this is like arguing that Jiminy Cricket is tall because he has height. However, rainwater will naturally absorb CO2 in the air (and since the industrial revolution, NO2 and SO3), making it acidic.
- nyan_sandwich 12y agoThe reason given was leeching. Neutral is not good enough for that sometimes; you need slightly basic. Some things will corrode at pH 7, but not higher. Good call though; distilled water is neutral.
- ams6110 12y agoDistilled water being very low in dissolved ions will be more prone to picking up metal ions from pipes than water that already has a natural/normal level of dissolved ions. So in that way it is more "corrosive" than ordinary tap water.
- alephnil 12y agoDistilled water is neutral, but natural surface water with low mineral content still has CO2 disolved in it, and usually also some SO2 and NOx, which makes the water acidic, so what's wrong is the comparison with distilled water, not that it is acidic.
- jrapdx3 12y agoI should have expressed this more carefully. Distilled water is by itself neutral, but as you note, CO2 and other gases will dissolve in it, forming weak acids. That happens when rain falls, but will also occur in the lab when distilled water is exposed to air. In that case, pH will be variably slightly less than 7.0. That's the reason calibration of pH meters relies on carefully prepared buffer solutions which are much less affected by airborne gases. Neutrality of distilled water could be improved by boiling it to drive off atmospheric CO2, and storing it in full, sealed containers. If its pH were measured without exposure to air, it would be 7.0, or very close to it.
- andyidsinga 12y agoim also in pdx and am curious about our bull run water. agreed, after the fluoride campaign, no way in hell adding Li will pass.
- jrapdx3 12y agoThe Water Bureau website has all the Bull Run water analysis online. The latest is from April 2014: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/water/article/494758 https://www.portlandoregon.gov/water/article/494758 I used to check this more often, even before there was a WWW, when I was home-brewing beer. Then, as now, the water was so low in dissolved minerals, it was necessary to add Ca++, Mg++, etc. as yeast nutrients. All of Portland's big microbreweries probably still have do the same thing.
- 31reasons 12y ago>>What chance would there be of adding lithium to our water supply? I can imagine posters like "The government wants to drug us".
- dubfan 12y agoIn fact, that was exactly a line used by the anti-fluoridation side when it was up for vote.
- gcb0 12y agoLi has those studies (US, JP, UK) going for it, with only 1/6 going against in the UK but having the lowest doses in the study. fluoride in drinking water have zero reputable academic sources confirming any efficacy. So, just because some people are conspiracy theory nuts/paranoids/etc does not make them instantly wrong.
- ozy23378 12y ago> Medicinally Li is provided as the carbonate salt. A minimal dose is 300 mg/day, which contains ~ 30 mg elemental Li. Lithium carbonate is about 19 % elemental lithium by mass (lithium carbonate contains two lithium atoms per molecule), so 300 mg would be ~ 57 mg lithium. Also, to my knowledge, the typical therapeutic doses are at least 900 mg/d in adults.
- jrapdx3 12y agoThanks, I did miscalculate and your figure is right. That means that Li+ concentration of 0.17 mg/L is ~1/160 of a minimal therapeutic dose. As a drug Li carbonate comes in 300 and 450 mg doses. Dosing is determined by monitoring the blood level of Li since only a narrow range of levels represent optimal therapeutic effect, and above that range toxicity can develop. There is no "standard" dose of Li. It's necessary to start at lowest dose and increase gradually while monitoring the blood level. While 900-1200 mg/day is common, there are many individuals who need lower or higher dosage to have measured Li levels fall within acceptable limits. Occasionally 300 mg/day is sufficient to get a good level, so that's the reason I used it for estimating the ratio of the natural vs. medicinal Li intake.