4 ms·

The real question is what would have his life been like without that aid? Perhaps no education, no money for health care. Perhaps even loss of life (or a family

by spydum 12y ago

The real question is what would have his life been like without that aid? Perhaps no education, no money for health care. Perhaps even loss of life (or a family member)? On aside, since it was covered so heavily: I have heard of more than a few people who lose their faith due to church behavior. This seems almost immature thinking to me. If you see a problem with church leadership behavior, and you don't see fault in the beliefs, why not affect change in the church? Ask those tough questions about what money is spent on. This seems far more logical than abandoning faith.

fendrak 12y ago
Speaking as someone who's lived through the opposite experience (grew up seeing the wrong thing not believing, found the right thing and believed), I think it comes from the repeated dissonance between reading/being taught one thing, and then not seeing that thing actually lived out. Turns out that when you actually see people practicing what they preach on a large scale, things can turn out quite different! I can only imagine people don't try and affect change for the same reasons they don't try and affect change in politics at large, namely that the issue seems so large that they can't see themselves making any headway against a seemingly advancing tide.
x0x0 12y ago
Why is it immature to see people preach one way, behave a separate way, and conclude they're full of shit? It seems a basic requirement of a reasonable human being that people preaching that folks should behave way X comport themselves in way X. eg the catholic church is, at this point, practically a child rape conspiracy: over and over people in the church discovered what was going on, and over and over they chose to tolerate the behavior to protect the church. Just to pick one notable example, the pope chose not to defrock a priest that molested TWO HUNDRED boys in his care [1], instead squirreling him off to northern wisconsin... where he had more access to children. As their book says, you shall know them by their fruits. This was an act performed by the head of the catholic church. If you can stomach the acts performed by the church and the totality of the church hierarchy, then still believe what they preach, I'd say you're practically deluded. [1] http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/03/26/wisconsin-priest-molests-200-d/ http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/03/26/wisconsin-prie...
- inportb 12y ago
  > Why is it immature to see people preach one way, behave a separate way, and conclude they're full of shit? It's not. Concluding that people are unreasonable and summarily dismissing what they preach is what seems immature. One might instead realize that a church and its religion are related but distinct... that although people may not perfectly embody what they preach, the beliefs themselves may be virtuous.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    I believe reasonable people should conclude that when people systemically preach X and behave !X that they, and their beliefs, are addled. Or more likely that they're hucksters. They're using their credibility to sell something, and they have no credibility. Not to mention the bible, a rorshach of self-contradictory beliefs; christians regularly attempt to avoid standing behind their opinions or condemnation thereof via the "bible says so" ruse, though they're notably happy to lawyer their way out of biblical rules that have fallen out of favor (clothes of two threads, slavery, wife as chattel, homosexuality for some.)
    - nfoz 12y ago
      I believe I should not lie. But sometimes I lie. I find this hard. It is a personal struggle, something I meditate on and genuinely try to improve myself. When others lie, I want to say that lying is wrong and simultaneously acknowledge that it's difficult to do the right thing. I preach X and behave !X. But I don't think I'm a huckster, nor trying to sell anything. I'm just me. I'm not vying for credibility. But I still encourage people not to lie, even though it's hard. Is there anyone who lives in perfect accordance with their ideals for how people should live?
      - pyre 12y ago
        People turn away from those that Preach "Everyone that does X is evil, and will go to hell," then are found out to be doing "X." Then they claim that they are not going to hell because they are the exception to the rule. Doesn't even have to be around religion. Rush Limbaugh laughed at the idea that addiction was a 'disease' until it came out that he was an addict. Then all of the sudden it's a disease, with no apology to all of the others that were decried as stupid/wrong/etc over the years.
spacehome 12y ago
People don't come to religion through a rational and dispirited analysis of all available evidence. Why would you expect them to hold leaving religion to a higher standard?
- ClashTheBunny 12y ago
  Do you have evidence for this? Statistics? I don't think it is wholly irrational to seek community, as we are social animals; I think that people who join religion can do it for community. What irrational reasons do you know of and what percent of people do it for those reasons?
  - gohrt 12y ago
    People can rationally join church for community. People can rationally join religion for community, but only with very sophisiticated metacognition. Most people slip into religion without a rational basis, but still may appreciate the benefits of their religion post hoc.
  - spacehome 12y ago
    Statistics, no. But for evidence, talk to any religious person for 5 minutes about why they're religious. You're right; it is not irrational to seek community, but believing a religion is correct in order to join a community is. For irrational reasons, here: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1uvp3i/why_are_or_arent_you_religious_serious/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1uvp3i/why_are_or... The explanations on that page is a cavalcade of cognitive errors. There's plenty more where that came from.

by spydum 12y ago

fendrak 12y ago

Speaking as someone who's lived through the opposite experience (grew up seeing the wrong thing not believing, found the right thing and believed), I think it comes from the repeated dissonance between reading/being taught one thing, and then not seeing that thing actually lived out. Turns out that when you actually see people practicing what they preach on a large scale, things can turn out quite different! I can only imagine people don't try and affect change for the same reasons they don't try and affect change in politics at large, namely that the issue seems so large that they can't see themselves making any headway against a seemingly advancing tide.

x0x0 12y ago

Why is it immature to see people preach one way, behave a separate way, and conclude they're full of shit? It seems a basic requirement of a reasonable human being that people preaching that folks should behave way X comport themselves in way X. eg the catholic church is, at this point, practically a child rape conspiracy: over and over people in the church discovered what was going on, and over and over they chose to tolerate the behavior to protect the church. Just to pick one notable example, the pope chose not to defrock a priest that molested TWO HUNDRED boys in his care [1], instead squirreling him off to northern wisconsin... where he had more access to children. As their book says, you shall know them by their fruits. This was an act performed by the head of the catholic church. If you can stomach the acts performed by the church and the totality of the church hierarchy, then still believe what they preach, I'd say you're practically deluded. [1] http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/03/26/wisconsin-priest-molests-200-d/ http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/03/26/wisconsin-prie...

inportb 12y ago
> Why is it immature to see people preach one way, behave a separate way, and conclude they're full of shit? It's not. Concluding that people are unreasonable and summarily dismissing what they preach is what seems immature. One might instead realize that a church and its religion are related but distinct... that although people may not perfectly embody what they preach, the beliefs themselves may be virtuous.
- x0x0 12y ago
  I believe reasonable people should conclude that when people systemically preach X and behave !X that they, and their beliefs, are addled. Or more likely that they're hucksters. They're using their credibility to sell something, and they have no credibility. Not to mention the bible, a rorshach of self-contradictory beliefs; christians regularly attempt to avoid standing behind their opinions or condemnation thereof via the "bible says so" ruse, though they're notably happy to lawyer their way out of biblical rules that have fallen out of favor (clothes of two threads, slavery, wife as chattel, homosexuality for some.)
  - nfoz 12y ago
    I believe I should not lie. But sometimes I lie. I find this hard. It is a personal struggle, something I meditate on and genuinely try to improve myself. When others lie, I want to say that lying is wrong and simultaneously acknowledge that it's difficult to do the right thing. I preach X and behave !X. But I don't think I'm a huckster, nor trying to sell anything. I'm just me. I'm not vying for credibility. But I still encourage people not to lie, even though it's hard. Is there anyone who lives in perfect accordance with their ideals for how people should live?
    - pyre 12y ago
      People turn away from those that Preach "Everyone that does X is evil, and will go to hell," then are found out to be doing "X." Then they claim that they are not going to hell because they are the exception to the rule. Doesn't even have to be around religion. Rush Limbaugh laughed at the idea that addiction was a 'disease' until it came out that he was an addict. Then all of the sudden it's a disease, with no apology to all of the others that were decried as stupid/wrong/etc over the years.

spacehome 12y ago

People don't come to religion through a rational and dispirited analysis of all available evidence. Why would you expect them to hold leaving religion to a higher standard?

ClashTheBunny 12y ago
Do you have evidence for this? Statistics? I don't think it is wholly irrational to seek community, as we are social animals; I think that people who join religion can do it for community. What irrational reasons do you know of and what percent of people do it for those reasons?
- gohrt 12y ago
  People can rationally join church for community. People can rationally join religion for community, but only with very sophisiticated metacognition. Most people slip into religion without a rational basis, but still may appreciate the benefits of their religion post hoc.
- spacehome 12y ago
  Statistics, no. But for evidence, talk to any religious person for 5 minutes about why they're religious. You're right; it is not irrational to seek community, but believing a religion is correct in order to join a community is. For irrational reasons, here: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1uvp3i/why_are_or_arent_you_religious_serious/ http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1uvp3i/why_are_or... The explanations on that page is a cavalcade of cognitive errors. There's plenty more where that came from.