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Ask HN: Real-world programmer salary in Silicon Valley

14 points by pingping 12y ago

Hello, i recently applied to a programming job (Backed Java Developer) here in Germany. The annual salary with standard benefits was 48k Euro which equals about ~62k USD. Obviously salaries in Germany and the US are not 100% comparable, but lets just ignore that for now. During the job interview, i was asked why i am not working in SV. I wasnt prepared for the question so i did not know what to say. The interviewer said that for my profile i would be making between 100-150k USD in SV. I was rather stunned. So, to give you some information on my background: I am 100% self-taught. I do not have any academic degree but a decent amount of experience. I have a total of 8 years programming experience (including work at Startups) with a strong focus on web application development. I consider myself very experienced in Java and Python, plus decent PHP and C skills. Needless to say i also have HTML, CSS and SQL on my resume. On top of that, Linux is my home. All the coreutils in general, administrating and deploying the most used services.... not a problem. So tell me, what would someone like me be making in SV? Searching for this info on Google brings numbers anywhere from 40k-250k USD, so i would like to hear some people with real-world numbers.

eip 12y ago
The interviewer was right.
to3m 12y ago
Interesting question from the interviewer, who must have neither friends nor family ;) One source of salary information, probably relevant to you, being a non-US type, might be the H1-B database: http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm (select Performance Data tab, download latest PERM spreadsheet) See, for example, this blog post: http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=107 http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=107
zura 12y ago
Just one thing, last time I calculated: from 150K gross salary, you get 90-100K net after taxes. Also consider housing prices in SV and that 150K doesn't sound that good anymore ;) That said, you should aim for 150K+ base salary, plus a lot of bonuses and stocks on top of it, so in the end, 250K+ should be achievable. This probably rules out most of startups for you, unless you're for the equity. 48K EUR - sounds like Berlin, right? ;) But I think you can negotiate up to 65-70K EUR if you really try.
latimer 12y ago
That range is about right for someone with no professional experience. At a medium-sized company in SV you should be offered a minimum of 100-110k base salary, 10-15% yearly bonus, plus stock options.
dennybritz 12y ago
90k-140k sounds about right, depending on how well you can negotiate and sell yourself. You also need to take into account taxes and considerably higher costs of living compared to Germany. The biggest problem for you will be getting a visa. There are relatively few startups who would go through the trouble of sponsoring you a visa, unless you bring something really exceptional to the table. Your profile doesn't strike me as something that would be considered by "big" companies who typically sponsor H1B's since they often filter by college degree. That is assuming you are eligible for a visa. An H-1B visa requires a Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience. Your experience may be sufficient, but proving that is easier said than done. As far as I remember 3 years of experience are generally considered equivalent to one year of college, which would mean that you need 12 years. But you shouldn't trust me on this and look it up instead.
- pingping 12y ago
  > The biggest problem for you will be getting a visa. I have US citizenship, just never lived there for longer than a few weeks. So, considering all this. Is there any reason not to move down there and pile up some cash for a few years?
  - hashtag 12y ago
    Don't just look at salary comparison. You have to consider cost of living and this area is one of the most expensive to live. The salary high in part because of this. Ultimately it might be a wash compared to what you make in Germany relative to what your expenses are there.
fredophile 12y ago
You might make more in SV but would you make more after accounting for cost of living differences? It's a very expensive area to live in. A quick Google search tells me that your 48k Euros is equivalent to over 100k USD in SV. I used Berlin and San Francisco as the locations for comparison. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...
- S4M 12y ago
  Berlin is not Germany. I don't know where the OP is from, but if he's from Muenchen or Frankfurt, my rough estimation (I am not German) is that the cost of life in those cities are 20-30% higher than in Berlin.
  - fredophile 12y ago
    I'm also not German and don't know where in Germany the OP is from. I've heard about the tech startup scene in Berlin but I can't recall hearing about a started community in other cities in Germeny. That's why I chose Berlin as a proxy for Germany and clearly stated it as an assumption. San Francisco isn't the same as all of Silicon Valley either. The OP knows what city he's in and can find the appropriate cost of living difference on his own.
bluesnowmonkey 12y ago
Yeah, 100k to 150k USD for the experience you describe sounds typical. The Java/Python combo in particular would be helpful for getting into companies like Google where total compensation can exceed 150k. Cost of living in the Bay Area is high but misunderstood. When I decided to move to San Francisco, I estimated that I would pay 25% more rent, earn a 50% higher salary, and not need a car. I told people I was moving and they said, "But it's so expensive! How can you afford that?" Because math. [1] [1]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/28/cost_of_living_in_major_cities_why_new_york_and_san_francisco_are_actually.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/28/cost_of_livin...
alain94040 12y ago
Actually, you can get a job in Germany, or you could get one in Silicon Valley, or in London, etc. The real question is what do you want? Silicon Valley is far from Europe: moving there, you'd lose your friends and family. Some people do it (the pioneers), most don't and that's fine. Yes, the salaries are as "good" as the interviewer said. Yes, you'll have major visa issues since you don't have a degree. Not everyone needs to move to Silicon Valley to be happy. And frankly, don't move for the money. A good analogy I heard is: if you want to try to play in the big leaves, come to Silicon Valley. Failure rates are higher, but at least you'll find out how good you are. Would you take a shot at playing in the Bundesliga or keep being the best player in your local club?
argonaut 12y ago
That sounds right, and if you're good at self-promotion, interviewing, and negotiation, I don't think 200k within a year is unachievable. I've heard of fresh college grads getting 200k all-in compensation (base + stock + bonus) at Google/Facebook. As for cost of living, it's really up to you. You don't have to live in SF. The only reason prices in SF are high is because you have swarms of engineers with 6-figure salaries and startups with millions raised bidding up the prices in a few highly desirable areas of SF. If you're willing to 1) have a roommate, 2) live in a less desirable (specifically, a much higher crime area), or 3) give up being able to walk to work / bike to work in 10 minutes and live with a 30 minute commute from other cities in the SF area (East Bay, some parts of South Bay, etc., then you can lower your costs a lot.
loumf 12y ago
Take some time to look at the remote market. It's very good right now, and many companies pay standardized salaries not based on your local market. I would take a look at Careers.StackOverflow.com and weworkremotely.com. Might take a few months -- but there are gems in there. I live in a rural area in the US, and the best devs I know in the area get SV salaries for remote work (or own their own companies).

14 points by pingping 12y ago

eip 12y ago

The interviewer was right.

to3m 12y ago

Interesting question from the interviewer, who must have neither friends nor family ;) One source of salary information, probably relevant to you, being a non-US type, might be the H1-B database: http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm (select Performance Data tab, download latest PERM spreadsheet) See, for example, this blog post: http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=107 http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=107

zura 12y ago

Just one thing, last time I calculated: from 150K gross salary, you get 90-100K net after taxes. Also consider housing prices in SV and that 150K doesn't sound that good anymore ;) That said, you should aim for 150K+ base salary, plus a lot of bonuses and stocks on top of it, so in the end, 250K+ should be achievable. This probably rules out most of startups for you, unless you're for the equity. 48K EUR - sounds like Berlin, right? ;) But I think you can negotiate up to 65-70K EUR if you really try.

latimer 12y ago

That range is about right for someone with no professional experience. At a medium-sized company in SV you should be offered a minimum of 100-110k base salary, 10-15% yearly bonus, plus stock options.

dennybritz 12y ago

90k-140k sounds about right, depending on how well you can negotiate and sell yourself. You also need to take into account taxes and considerably higher costs of living compared to Germany. The biggest problem for you will be getting a visa. There are relatively few startups who would go through the trouble of sponsoring you a visa, unless you bring something really exceptional to the table. Your profile doesn't strike me as something that would be considered by "big" companies who typically sponsor H1B's since they often filter by college degree. That is assuming you are eligible for a visa. An H-1B visa requires a Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience. Your experience may be sufficient, but proving that is easier said than done. As far as I remember 3 years of experience are generally considered equivalent to one year of college, which would mean that you need 12 years. But you shouldn't trust me on this and look it up instead.

pingping 12y ago
> The biggest problem for you will be getting a visa. I have US citizenship, just never lived there for longer than a few weeks. So, considering all this. Is there any reason not to move down there and pile up some cash for a few years?
- hashtag 12y ago
  Don't just look at salary comparison. You have to consider cost of living and this area is one of the most expensive to live. The salary high in part because of this. Ultimately it might be a wash compared to what you make in Germany relative to what your expenses are there.

fredophile 12y ago

You might make more in SV but would you make more after accounting for cost of living differences? It's a very expensive area to live in. A quick Google search tells me that your 48k Euros is equivalent to over 100k USD in SV. I used Berlin and San Francisco as the locations for comparison. http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

S4M 12y ago
Berlin is not Germany. I don't know where the OP is from, but if he's from Muenchen or Frankfurt, my rough estimation (I am not German) is that the cost of life in those cities are 20-30% higher than in Berlin.
- fredophile 12y ago
  I'm also not German and don't know where in Germany the OP is from. I've heard about the tech startup scene in Berlin but I can't recall hearing about a started community in other cities in Germeny. That's why I chose Berlin as a proxy for Germany and clearly stated it as an assumption. San Francisco isn't the same as all of Silicon Valley either. The OP knows what city he's in and can find the appropriate cost of living difference on his own.

bluesnowmonkey 12y ago

Yeah, 100k to 150k USD for the experience you describe sounds typical. The Java/Python combo in particular would be helpful for getting into companies like Google where total compensation can exceed 150k. Cost of living in the Bay Area is high but misunderstood. When I decided to move to San Francisco, I estimated that I would pay 25% more rent, earn a 50% higher salary, and not need a car. I told people I was moving and they said, "But it's so expensive! How can you afford that?" Because math. [1] [1]: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/28/cost_of_living_in_major_cities_why_new_york_and_san_francisco_are_actually.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/08/28/cost_of_livin...

alain94040 12y ago

Actually, you can get a job in Germany, or you could get one in Silicon Valley, or in London, etc. The real question is what do you want? Silicon Valley is far from Europe: moving there, you'd lose your friends and family. Some people do it (the pioneers), most don't and that's fine. Yes, the salaries are as "good" as the interviewer said. Yes, you'll have major visa issues since you don't have a degree. Not everyone needs to move to Silicon Valley to be happy. And frankly, don't move for the money. A good analogy I heard is: if you want to try to play in the big leaves, come to Silicon Valley. Failure rates are higher, but at least you'll find out how good you are. Would you take a shot at playing in the Bundesliga or keep being the best player in your local club?

argonaut 12y ago

That sounds right, and if you're good at self-promotion, interviewing, and negotiation, I don't think 200k within a year is unachievable. I've heard of fresh college grads getting 200k all-in compensation (base + stock + bonus) at Google/Facebook. As for cost of living, it's really up to you. You don't have to live in SF. The only reason prices in SF are high is because you have swarms of engineers with 6-figure salaries and startups with millions raised bidding up the prices in a few highly desirable areas of SF. If you're willing to 1) have a roommate, 2) live in a less desirable (specifically, a much higher crime area), or 3) give up being able to walk to work / bike to work in 10 minutes and live with a 30 minute commute from other cities in the SF area (East Bay, some parts of South Bay, etc., then you can lower your costs a lot.

loumf 12y ago

Take some time to look at the remote market. It's very good right now, and many companies pay standardized salaries not based on your local market. I would take a look at Careers.StackOverflow.com and weworkremotely.com. Might take a few months -- but there are gems in there. I live in a rural area in the US, and the best devs I know in the area get SV salaries for remote work (or own their own companies).