4 ms·

It does NOT matter what the average/median salary is (although you might argue that even 100K in SV is not that much). What _matters_ is - what would the salari

by jazzyk 12y ago

It does NOT matter what the average/median salary is (although you might argue that even 100K in SV is not that much). What _matters_ is - what would the salaries have been, if it were not for the mass import of workers from India. You don't need to be a genius to know that more supply => lower price. I am always amazed that many supposedly bright engineers miss this very simple correlation.

davidw 12y ago
Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. Anyway, I flagged this article - it's politics.
- jazzyk 12y ago
  1. It is primarily economics (though politics is always involved when it comes to money). 2. I understand that the IT market has grown immensely over the last 20 years, needing more people, it is not a zero-sum game, however: 3. If the job market was allowed to be free within the US, compensation would go way up, due to actual (not imaginary) labor shortage 4. More young people would be lured to pursue all things STEM/IT 5. The market would find its equilibrium We apparently have a shortage of CEOs, judging by their salaries exploding. Do we have an H1-B program for CEOs?
- econdataus 12y ago
  > Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy I don't buy the notion that every H-1B visa worker creates jobs. Taking the fact that some of the most talented individuals who come in under H-1B create jobs does not mean that they all do or that they create jobs on average. That is the Fallacy of composition described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition as follows: "The fallacy of composition arises when one implies that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part)." > Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. No, many of those hotshot CEOs (many of whom, like Zuckerberg, were born on third base) would have already moved all of their operations overseas if cheap labor was their only goal. They realize there are problems with doing that. First of all, they would have to constantly travel to the foreign sites to meet with the natives. They are also likely aware that it would just be a matter of time before the natives found a way to overthrow their American overlords and install their own people in charge. Finally, they realize that it would look unpatriotic and greedy to move their entire operation overseas. Instead, they just seek to buy influence in Washington D.C., push to loosen the H-1B laws to bring in more cheap labor, and make phony claims that this is necessary because there aren't enough American workers to allow their genius to take full bloom.
makmanalp 12y ago
Glassdoor.com, which is the most decent salary source I can think of right now, lists Microsoft Software Development Engineers' average salaries as $94,387 with 6000 data points. Software Development Engineers in Test are lower at 84k and 7000 data points. Take from that what you will regarding how much of a wage reduction that would be causing. Let's look at it from a different perspective. There are 1 million software developers in the US alone: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... There are 22 million stem employees in the US as of 2013: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13311/ http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13311/ The hand wringing here is about 85 thousand a year, a quota which was maxed out /only once/ before last year. A drop in the ocean. And somehow this is the reason US STEM graduates aren't employed in STEM fields, the reason why STEM isn't growing, the reason to blame for everything, etc etc.
- jazzyk 12y ago
  Don't know about the whole STEM industry, I can only offer anecdotal evidence: almost every big corp I consulted for had FLOORS of Indian people, many of whom barely had community college - equivalent diploma. H1-B has its place, but is should be reserved for REALLY qualified people - say the ones with MS or Ph.D in sciences who graduated from American universities.
  - grinnbearit 12y ago
    Considering its the only real option for anyone in China/India to work in the US, what would you replace it with? Or do you prefer they stay right where they are?
    - jazzyk 12y ago
      All I am saying is that importing a small number of really bright, highly educated MS and PhDs _is_ beneficial to _everybody_ in the US(creates jobs, etc). Yes, it is brain drain. I am not sure why the US needs to provide work places for Chinese and Indian citizens? There are many US citizens who need a job these days. I don;t think I am being insensitive - most countries are very protective of their job markets. Try to get a work permit in France or Europe if you are not from a EU country.

by jazzyk 12y ago

davidw 12y ago

Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. Anyway, I flagged this article - it's politics.

jazzyk 12y ago
1. It is primarily economics (though politics is always involved when it comes to money). 2. I understand that the IT market has grown immensely over the last 20 years, needing more people, it is not a zero-sum game, however: 3. If the job market was allowed to be free within the US, compensation would go way up, due to actual (not imaginary) labor shortage 4. More young people would be lured to pursue all things STEM/IT 5. The market would find its equilibrium We apparently have a shortage of CEOs, judging by their salaries exploding. Do we have an H1-B program for CEOs?
econdataus 12y ago
> Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy I don't buy the notion that every H-1B visa worker creates jobs. Taking the fact that some of the most talented individuals who come in under H-1B create jobs does not mean that they all do or that they create jobs on average. That is the Fallacy of composition described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition as follows: "The fallacy of composition arises when one implies that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part)." > Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. No, many of those hotshot CEOs (many of whom, like Zuckerberg, were born on third base) would have already moved all of their operations overseas if cheap labor was their only goal. They realize there are problems with doing that. First of all, they would have to constantly travel to the foreign sites to meet with the natives. They are also likely aware that it would just be a matter of time before the natives found a way to overthrow their American overlords and install their own people in charge. Finally, they realize that it would look unpatriotic and greedy to move their entire operation overseas. Instead, they just seek to buy influence in Washington D.C., push to loosen the H-1B laws to bring in more cheap labor, and make phony claims that this is necessary because there aren't enough American workers to allow their genius to take full bloom.

makmanalp 12y ago

Glassdoor.com, which is the most decent salary source I can think of right now, lists Microsoft Software Development Engineers' average salaries as $94,387 with 6000 data points. Software Development Engineers in Test are lower at 84k and 7000 data points. Take from that what you will regarding how much of a wage reduction that would be causing. Let's look at it from a different perspective. There are 1 million software developers in the US alone: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... There are 22 million stem employees in the US as of 2013: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13311/ http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13311/ The hand wringing here is about 85 thousand a year, a quota which was maxed out /only once/ before last year. A drop in the ocean. And somehow this is the reason US STEM graduates aren't employed in STEM fields, the reason why STEM isn't growing, the reason to blame for everything, etc etc.

jazzyk 12y ago
Don't know about the whole STEM industry, I can only offer anecdotal evidence: almost every big corp I consulted for had FLOORS of Indian people, many of whom barely had community college - equivalent diploma. H1-B has its place, but is should be reserved for REALLY qualified people - say the ones with MS or Ph.D in sciences who graduated from American universities.
- grinnbearit 12y ago
  Considering its the only real option for anyone in China/India to work in the US, what would you replace it with? Or do you prefer they stay right where they are?
  - jazzyk 12y ago
    All I am saying is that importing a small number of really bright, highly educated MS and PhDs _is_ beneficial to _everybody_ in the US(creates jobs, etc). Yes, it is brain drain. I am not sure why the US needs to provide work places for Chinese and Indian citizens? There are many US citizens who need a job these days. I don;t think I am being insensitive - most countries are very protective of their job markets. Try to get a work permit in France or Europe if you are not from a EU country.