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While I'm all for equal opportunity, the hidden side effect I'm noticing from the H1B increase is exploitation by companies, of both the H1B holders and non hol

While I'm all for equal opportunity, the hidden side effect I'm noticing from the H1B increase is exploitation by companies, of both the H1B holders and non holders. Many companies and shops in the "silicon forest" have been pushing people to longer hours, they seek out H1Bs so they can get away with more and those who are not H1Bs have to comply with demands because of the threat of being replaced by an H1B. In the end, only the big companies win from the program. That's just been my impression the last few years.

gcb0 12y ago
who ever said was supposed to be good for workers? remember that the US is the only country to still allow at-will employement... it doesnt care even for the native workers. those laws are justifyed as "if we dont get those visas we open offices elsewhere and you dont get our taxes". then congress/states allow the conditions the conpanies demands and they avoid taxes anyway via income routing in ireland or who knows where.
makmanalp 12y ago
This is untrue. If you actually look at the data, you'll find that the companies who hire the majority of H-1Bs are actually not the silicon valley usual suspects. Some of them you haven't even heard of. If you're not in the consulting world or are not a foreign worker in the US, you probably don't know much about Infosys, Wipro, Tata consulting services, Satyam computer services, Larsen & Toubro, HCL. Yet these companies comprise the vast majority of all H-1B petitions, with average salaries ranging from 50k to the 75k, well under market for tech. Some silicon valley firms are there, yes. IBM averages 82k, not bad for a company which capitalizes on commoditizing engineering. Then there is Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, Google, Amazon, Intel, which form a minority of petitions, and have /average/ salaries of over $100k. How is that not a competitive salary? 6 digits is not wage slavery, and these people were not compelled to settle for that, for christ's sake. The companies have to pay 5 to 7k in legal costs and fees to get the H-1B, and even more for larger companies. And they have to wait for months for a chance to get it approved. For the former group, given how low the wages are, this is cost effective. For the latter group, it really isn't better. Facebook, which doesn't even make the top 50 list, has been campaigning for immigration reform and has repeatedly been the target of "taking our jerbs" rhetoric, when their average foreign worker salary is around 120k. So yes, some companies win, but not the ones you expect. Blame the right companies, and don't throw everyone under the bus. ---- Data: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx (yes, yes, not all LCA's files actually turn into visas, etc, but they are representative of wages companies intend to pay.) Disclaimer: I'm on an H-1B, and I'm getting a bit sick and tired of clearing up misconceptions that keep coming up on this subject on HN. An old post on the subject: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5515519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5515519 ---- edit: To clarify, yes, I think the legal immigration process, especially the H-1B is messed up. I think it needs to be fixed and modernized. I think it needs to be untied from company sponsorship, and the workers need to not be tied down to companies, and subject to market forces. I think there needs to be more transparency too in terms of the data. I've even proposed a policy limiting the number of H-1B workers larger companies can have, which addresses the H-1B sweatshop issue somewhat, while not damaging foreign workers. But yeah, I get mad when people talk about a subject so important to me without having any clue about the data, and reach their conclusions through political rhetoric they heard elsewhere.
- jazzyk 12y ago
  It does NOT matter what the average/median salary is (although you might argue that even 100K in SV is not that much). What _matters_ is - what would the salaries have been, if it were not for the mass import of workers from India. You don't need to be a genius to know that more supply => lower price. I am always amazed that many supposedly bright engineers miss this very simple correlation.
  - davidw 12y ago
    Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. Anyway, I flagged this article - it's politics.
    - jazzyk 12y ago
      1. It is primarily economics (though politics is always involved when it comes to money). 2. I understand that the IT market has grown immensely over the last 20 years, needing more people, it is not a zero-sum game, however: 3. If the job market was allowed to be free within the US, compensation would go way up, due to actual (not imaginary) labor shortage 4. More young people would be lured to pursue all things STEM/IT 5. The market would find its equilibrium We apparently have a shortage of CEOs, judging by their salaries exploding. Do we have an H1-B program for CEOs?
    - econdataus 12y ago
      > Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy I don't buy the notion that every H-1B visa worker creates jobs. Taking the fact that some of the most talented individuals who come in under H-1B create jobs does not mean that they all do or that they create jobs on average. That is the Fallacy of composition described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition as follows: "The fallacy of composition arises when one implies that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part)." > Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. No, many of those hotshot CEOs (many of whom, like Zuckerberg, were born on third base) would have already moved all of their operations overseas if cheap labor was their only goal. They realize there are problems with doing that. First of all, they would have to constantly travel to the foreign sites to meet with the natives. They are also likely aware that it would just be a matter of time before the natives found a way to overthrow their American overlords and install their own people in charge. Finally, they realize that it would look unpatriotic and greedy to move their entire operation overseas. Instead, they just seek to buy influence in Washington D.C., push to loosen the H-1B laws to bring in more cheap labor, and make phony claims that this is necessary because there aren't enough American workers to allow their genius to take full bloom.
zhng 12y ago
I've seen this first hand. It does happen.

gcb0 12y ago

who ever said was supposed to be good for workers? remember that the US is the only country to still allow at-will employement... it doesnt care even for the native workers. those laws are justifyed as "if we dont get those visas we open offices elsewhere and you dont get our taxes". then congress/states allow the conditions the conpanies demands and they avoid taxes anyway via income routing in ireland or who knows where.

makmanalp 12y ago

This is untrue. If you actually look at the data, you'll find that the companies who hire the majority of H-1Bs are actually not the silicon valley usual suspects. Some of them you haven't even heard of. If you're not in the consulting world or are not a foreign worker in the US, you probably don't know much about Infosys, Wipro, Tata consulting services, Satyam computer services, Larsen & Toubro, HCL. Yet these companies comprise the vast majority of all H-1B petitions, with average salaries ranging from 50k to the 75k, well under market for tech. Some silicon valley firms are there, yes. IBM averages 82k, not bad for a company which capitalizes on commoditizing engineering. Then there is Microsoft, Oracle, Apple, Google, Amazon, Intel, which form a minority of petitions, and have /average/ salaries of over $100k. How is that not a competitive salary? 6 digits is not wage slavery, and these people were not compelled to settle for that, for christ's sake. The companies have to pay 5 to 7k in legal costs and fees to get the H-1B, and even more for larger companies. And they have to wait for months for a chance to get it approved. For the former group, given how low the wages are, this is cost effective. For the latter group, it really isn't better. Facebook, which doesn't even make the top 50 list, has been campaigning for immigration reform and has repeatedly been the target of "taking our jerbs" rhetoric, when their average foreign worker salary is around 120k. So yes, some companies win, but not the ones you expect. Blame the right companies, and don't throw everyone under the bus. ---- Data: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx (yes, yes, not all LCA's files actually turn into visas, etc, but they are representative of wages companies intend to pay.) Disclaimer: I'm on an H-1B, and I'm getting a bit sick and tired of clearing up misconceptions that keep coming up on this subject on HN. An old post on the subject: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5515519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5515519 ---- edit: To clarify, yes, I think the legal immigration process, especially the H-1B is messed up. I think it needs to be fixed and modernized. I think it needs to be untied from company sponsorship, and the workers need to not be tied down to companies, and subject to market forces. I think there needs to be more transparency too in terms of the data. I've even proposed a policy limiting the number of H-1B workers larger companies can have, which addresses the H-1B sweatshop issue somewhat, while not damaging foreign workers. But yeah, I get mad when people talk about a subject so important to me without having any clue about the data, and reach their conclusions through political rhetoric they heard elsewhere.

jazzyk 12y ago
It does NOT matter what the average/median salary is (although you might argue that even 100K in SV is not that much). What _matters_ is - what would the salaries have been, if it were not for the mass import of workers from India. You don't need to be a genius to know that more supply => lower price. I am always amazed that many supposedly bright engineers miss this very simple correlation.
- davidw 12y ago
  Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. Anyway, I flagged this article - it's politics.
  - jazzyk 12y ago
    1. It is primarily economics (though politics is always involved when it comes to money). 2. I understand that the IT market has grown immensely over the last 20 years, needing more people, it is not a zero-sum game, however: 3. If the job market was allowed to be free within the US, compensation would go way up, due to actual (not imaginary) labor shortage 4. More young people would be lured to pursue all things STEM/IT 5. The market would find its equilibrium We apparently have a shortage of CEOs, judging by their salaries exploding. Do we have an H1-B program for CEOs?
  - econdataus 12y ago
    > Which is why we are so much poorer these days than 100 years ago with way fewer people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy I don't buy the notion that every H-1B visa worker creates jobs. Taking the fact that some of the most talented individuals who come in under H-1B create jobs does not mean that they all do or that they create jobs on average. That is the Fallacy of composition described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition as follows: "The fallacy of composition arises when one implies that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part)." > Also: if you keep all those people out, the companies will end up going where the talent is. No, many of those hotshot CEOs (many of whom, like Zuckerberg, were born on third base) would have already moved all of their operations overseas if cheap labor was their only goal. They realize there are problems with doing that. First of all, they would have to constantly travel to the foreign sites to meet with the natives. They are also likely aware that it would just be a matter of time before the natives found a way to overthrow their American overlords and install their own people in charge. Finally, they realize that it would look unpatriotic and greedy to move their entire operation overseas. Instead, they just seek to buy influence in Washington D.C., push to loosen the H-1B laws to bring in more cheap labor, and make phony claims that this is necessary because there aren't enough American workers to allow their genius to take full bloom.

zhng 12y ago

I've seen this first hand. It does happen.