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Fashion is complicated, certainly all the reasons in the article play a role. But it also serves as an advertisement for fitness, fitness in terms of energy an

Fashion is complicated, certainly all the reasons in the article play a role. But it also serves as an advertisement for fitness, fitness in terms of energy and thought you can devote to staying in fashion. If you're a bit hurried and busy or just lost in deep thought like programmers, you don't have the resources to be on the cutting edge of fashion, and you tend to look a bit dumpy. If you're in real distress, you tend to look really like crap, what ever you're waring is strictly serving the function of protecting you from the elements, and nothing else. Like the peacock's tail, fashion is advertising excess resources. In some way it can also advertise genetic fitness, as in you have high social IQ and can read the crowd's mind. And then there's the I'm so proud of being a hacker I walk around looking like homeless person crowd, that's advertising that you're kind of a dick.

hughprime 17y ago
But it also serves as an advertisement for fitness, fitness in terms of energy and thought you can devote to staying in fashion. Ahh, but not entirely. One of the cardinal sins of fashion (at least for heterosexual men) is looking like you're trying too hard. Spending too much time trying to look good (or, say, buying a subscription to GQ) is actually an indicator of low status since only low-status men need to expend effort on looking like they're not low-status -- this is what my favourite fashion site magnificentbastard.com calls "The Principle of Artful Dishevelment". You want to indicate that you have naturally exquisite taste (and plenty of money) but that you're not sufficiently status-conscious to spend an hour on your hair before leaving the house.
- biohacker42 17y ago
  I agree 100%. Like the peacock's tail, if it was easy, it wouldn't be worth doing. It has to be hard to look good while not trying too hard to look good. It's all part of advertising exactly how high your social IQ is.
- masklinn 17y ago
  > One of the cardinal sins of fashion (at least for heterosexual men) is looking like you're trying too hard. Yes but that's a case of sprezzatura: to stay in fashion (or create trends), you'll need to work hard. But you must make it appear completely natural and done without trying.
- unalone 17y ago
  Don't think of it like it's judgmental. Think of it more as an indicator. If I'm reviewing a student's essay, and he's writing in a five-paragraph thesis model, then I know his effort is based largely on somebody else's idea of what makes a good essay. I don't think it's a sin to do that, but I also think that somebody writing like that hasn't found his own style.
decode 17y ago
He makes it clear throughout the article that he knows nothing about fashion, and even admits in the first paragraph that he has no interest in clothing or fashion: "I want simple, good-looking apparel that covers my nakedness and maybe even makes me look attractive." Here's a partial list of reasons people wear what they do, which the author misses (though some are mentioned in the comments): - To enhance one's body (appear more attractive, muscular, thin, etc) - To indicate a lack of concern for fashion. - Peer pressure to conform to what others are wearing. - Self expression of any number of things. - Aesthetic taste. - A sense of moral obligation (modesty, patriotism, etc). - Entertainment. - Marketing. - Safety. It's interesting that the author fixates on the motivation of status signaling above all others.
- billswift 17y ago
  Most of your list either use fashion for status signaling or are alternate means of status signaling. Specifically, the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th; and the 3rd, 7th, and 9th can though not always. I think Robin tends to overemphasize signaling in various issues, but not this time.
  - decode 17y ago
    Maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way, but I don't see how most of those things signal status (and some don't signal anything at all). Or perhaps I was just too terse in my list. Here are examples of what people might be thinking with some of them: - To enhance one's body (appear more attractive, muscular, thin, etc): being thin is inherently better than not, so I want to appear more thin. - Self expression of any number of things: it's important to me that people not kill animals, so I'll be conspicuous in the ways I don't wear leather. - Aesthetic taste: I prefer the look of the color red, so I'll wear it for my own pleasure. - Entertainment: keeping up with fashion is stimulating to me, so I'll do it for fun. Could you expound on why you think these things signal status in some way?
  - hughprime 17y ago
    Many of these are, I think, signaling of things other than status -- e.g. membership of a group. I also think this thread is missing the point slightly: status signaling doesn't explain every clothing decision ever made by anybody, but it does explain why fashions change the way they do.
billswift 17y ago
Being fashionable also advertises that you are something of a worthless shit who doesn't have any better use for his time; see PG's essay "Why Nerds Are Unpopular" http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
- unalone 17y ago
  Funny that you call fashionable people worthless shits while citing the essay that's used most to point out that lots of nerds are worthless shits. I don't see the point in denigrating people's passions, Bill. Paul Graham likes programming and making money. Not everybody does. Other people like to write music. Others, buying attractive clothing and learning how to look good. These things aren't inherently better than one another unless you want to buy into a specific social idea, and then we aren't required to go along with you. The one thing I do detest are people with persecution complexes. Nerds are frequently unpopular because they insist so passionately how unpopular they are. That's unpleasant and leads to people not liking them. As I've discovered, if you talk to people about designing web sites and programming innovations, they'll still like you. You've got to understand going in what other people will be interested in and what nobody gives a fuck about, and that some people will never care, but if you know that going in, you can make delightful friends even with non-nerds. The other problem is that some nerds know nothing but one specific thing, and they look down on everything else, so nobody likes them. There are people who know nothing but fashion, too, though they're rare and they're just as unpopular as nerds.
  - billswift 17y ago
    Praising or even respecting "passion" is a stupid pop-psych thing to do. Passion is worthless except to the extent that it motivates you to provide value to society. Or do you and the ??s that voted you up somehow think that passion excuses or justifies serial killers and Adolf Hitler and other historical and real world excesses.
    - olliesaunders 17y ago
      Your tone isn't doing you any favours but you actually make a good point. I was tempted to argue that providing "value to society" is always good but what you really mean to say is not that passion leads to "value" (there's no guarantee of that) but that passion leads to the motivation to act and the desire to have an effect somehow. Whether that will be good or bad is unknown, often irrespective of intentions, and can only be evaluated through value-judgement. If that's your belief, currently, I can't fault it.

hughprime 17y ago

But it also serves as an advertisement for fitness, fitness in terms of energy and thought you can devote to staying in fashion. Ahh, but not entirely. One of the cardinal sins of fashion (at least for heterosexual men) is looking like you're trying too hard. Spending too much time trying to look good (or, say, buying a subscription to GQ) is actually an indicator of low status since only low-status men need to expend effort on looking like they're not low-status -- this is what my favourite fashion site magnificentbastard.com calls "The Principle of Artful Dishevelment". You want to indicate that you have naturally exquisite taste (and plenty of money) but that you're not sufficiently status-conscious to spend an hour on your hair before leaving the house.

biohacker42 17y ago
I agree 100%. Like the peacock's tail, if it was easy, it wouldn't be worth doing. It has to be hard to look good while not trying too hard to look good. It's all part of advertising exactly how high your social IQ is.
masklinn 17y ago
> One of the cardinal sins of fashion (at least for heterosexual men) is looking like you're trying too hard. Yes but that's a case of sprezzatura: to stay in fashion (or create trends), you'll need to work hard. But you must make it appear completely natural and done without trying.
unalone 17y ago
Don't think of it like it's judgmental. Think of it more as an indicator. If I'm reviewing a student's essay, and he's writing in a five-paragraph thesis model, then I know his effort is based largely on somebody else's idea of what makes a good essay. I don't think it's a sin to do that, but I also think that somebody writing like that hasn't found his own style.

decode 17y ago

He makes it clear throughout the article that he knows nothing about fashion, and even admits in the first paragraph that he has no interest in clothing or fashion: "I want simple, good-looking apparel that covers my nakedness and maybe even makes me look attractive." Here's a partial list of reasons people wear what they do, which the author misses (though some are mentioned in the comments): - To enhance one's body (appear more attractive, muscular, thin, etc) - To indicate a lack of concern for fashion. - Peer pressure to conform to what others are wearing. - Self expression of any number of things. - Aesthetic taste. - A sense of moral obligation (modesty, patriotism, etc). - Entertainment. - Marketing. - Safety. It's interesting that the author fixates on the motivation of status signaling above all others.

billswift 17y ago
Most of your list either use fashion for status signaling or are alternate means of status signaling. Specifically, the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th; and the 3rd, 7th, and 9th can though not always. I think Robin tends to overemphasize signaling in various issues, but not this time.
- decode 17y ago
  Maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way, but I don't see how most of those things signal status (and some don't signal anything at all). Or perhaps I was just too terse in my list. Here are examples of what people might be thinking with some of them: - To enhance one's body (appear more attractive, muscular, thin, etc): being thin is inherently better than not, so I want to appear more thin. - Self expression of any number of things: it's important to me that people not kill animals, so I'll be conspicuous in the ways I don't wear leather. - Aesthetic taste: I prefer the look of the color red, so I'll wear it for my own pleasure. - Entertainment: keeping up with fashion is stimulating to me, so I'll do it for fun. Could you expound on why you think these things signal status in some way?
- hughprime 17y ago
  Many of these are, I think, signaling of things other than status -- e.g. membership of a group. I also think this thread is missing the point slightly: status signaling doesn't explain every clothing decision ever made by anybody, but it does explain why fashions change the way they do.

billswift 17y ago

Being fashionable also advertises that you are something of a worthless shit who doesn't have any better use for his time; see PG's essay "Why Nerds Are Unpopular" http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

unalone 17y ago
Funny that you call fashionable people worthless shits while citing the essay that's used most to point out that lots of nerds are worthless shits. I don't see the point in denigrating people's passions, Bill. Paul Graham likes programming and making money. Not everybody does. Other people like to write music. Others, buying attractive clothing and learning how to look good. These things aren't inherently better than one another unless you want to buy into a specific social idea, and then we aren't required to go along with you. The one thing I do detest are people with persecution complexes. Nerds are frequently unpopular because they insist so passionately how unpopular they are. That's unpleasant and leads to people not liking them. As I've discovered, if you talk to people about designing web sites and programming innovations, they'll still like you. You've got to understand going in what other people will be interested in and what nobody gives a fuck about, and that some people will never care, but if you know that going in, you can make delightful friends even with non-nerds. The other problem is that some nerds know nothing but one specific thing, and they look down on everything else, so nobody likes them. There are people who know nothing but fashion, too, though they're rare and they're just as unpopular as nerds.
- billswift 17y ago
  Praising or even respecting "passion" is a stupid pop-psych thing to do. Passion is worthless except to the extent that it motivates you to provide value to society. Or do you and the ??s that voted you up somehow think that passion excuses or justifies serial killers and Adolf Hitler and other historical and real world excesses.
  - olliesaunders 17y ago
    Your tone isn't doing you any favours but you actually make a good point. I was tempted to argue that providing "value to society" is always good but what you really mean to say is not that passion leads to "value" (there's no guarantee of that) but that passion leads to the motivation to act and the desire to have an effect somehow. Whether that will be good or bad is unknown, often irrespective of intentions, and can only be evaluated through value-judgement. If that's your belief, currently, I can't fault it.