4 ms·

I was thinking about that because it seemed like a cost they could just afford to ignore ($91m/yr), this was probably not the limit of the penalties they could

I was thinking about that because it seemed like a cost they could just afford to ignore ($91m/yr), this was probably not the limit of the penalties they could have faced.

ams6110 12y ago
At some point people would have started being thrown in jail and that's when resistance usually ends.
- skue 12y ago
  Right, but what would that look like? Would the FISA court jail a citizen without a trial, and can you imagine a FISA judge wanting to make that call, knowing that their decision will soon become public? Because once someone is prosecuted the U.S. govt would really have difficulty enforcing silence. It's one thing to force a company to be silent about surveillance, it's quite another to force individuals to be silent about being jailed. I'd like to think we haven't gone so far off the tracks that the first amendment wouldn't ultimately triumph in that case.
  - deciplex 12y ago
    It's called 'disappeared' and we're close.
    - idlewords 12y ago
      Watch what you say. Final warning.
  - dijit 12y ago
    it's not so cut and dry, first they discredit you. then they say you did something illegal and you're immoral. then you appear like you're lashing out at a government- trying to blame them instead of atoning for past transgressions.
  - amirmc 12y ago
    In an era of 'parallel construction', you build a separate case and use that as leverage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - mattmanser 12y ago
      That's simply blackmail, not 'parallel construction'.
      - dijit 12y ago
        Just as 'Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder' is simply 'Shell Shock' Language changes depending on how you want the person to feel about a subject. if you want people to hate and revile someone for doing something you do call it something strong and fierce (blackmail) if you want to do something yourself make it sound lawful (IE; parallel construction).
      - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
        It'll get the job done.
  - mike_hearn 12y ago
    I have read that the FISA court can indeed hold sometime in contempt secretly. For all we know if Yahoo had continued to resist their executives would have simply started disappearing.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
ntsb 12y ago
Seeing how the gov't can seemingly pull fines and penalties out from thin air (a la Russia Sanctions still ongoing and new), I think it's safe to say the $250K per day would have only been just the beginning.
madaxe_again 12y ago
They'd lock up the execs for "embezzlement". I could tell you a story about this squeaky clean guy I know who's in prison for fraud, because he refused to comply with a secret court order... but I can't, because I don't want to join him. I could tell you another story about a barrister I know who had his career destroyed and his wife "suicided" for refusing to do certain things around a trial in the UK - but again, I fear repercussions should I say anything. In fact, this is probably too much.
- cryoshon 12y ago
  You seem to have an inside perspective. Care to share more?
  - madaxe_again 12y ago
    Not really, sorry. I mean, yes, desperately, but I fear repercussions for the individuals concerned, myself, their families, etc. Suffice to say that of what you read in the press about the misdoings of important individual X should be taken with a heaping of salt and a cynical eye. We live in the age of assassination without murder.
    - cryoshon 12y ago
      What about over Tor?
      - madaxe_again 12y ago
        Nay. It isn't really about me, or what I communicate, rather that by discussing the detail it'd make it abundantly clear who I'm talking about - and I do not want to enhance either of their miseries. Additionally, merely by dint of me being able to know these things about these people it would make clear who I am, as I dare say there are a limited number of folks who have these two in their graph, and an even more limited number who are publicly anti-establishment, and thus potentially negate my ability to do anything positive about this. Sorry. If I do opt to go public with these tales it'll be via the Grauniad or somesuch, as only with significant clout, correlation and voice will there be any impact - otherwise it'll just be reburied in disinformation.

I was thinking about that because it seemed like a cost they could just afford to ignore ($91m/yr), this was probably not the limit of the penalties they could have faced.

ams6110 12y ago

At some point people would have started being thrown in jail and that's when resistance usually ends.

skue 12y ago
Right, but what would that look like? Would the FISA court jail a citizen without a trial, and can you imagine a FISA judge wanting to make that call, knowing that their decision will soon become public? Because once someone is prosecuted the U.S. govt would really have difficulty enforcing silence. It's one thing to force a company to be silent about surveillance, it's quite another to force individuals to be silent about being jailed. I'd like to think we haven't gone so far off the tracks that the first amendment wouldn't ultimately triumph in that case.
- deciplex 12y ago
  It's called 'disappeared' and we're close.
  - idlewords 12y ago
    Watch what you say. Final warning.
- dijit 12y ago
  it's not so cut and dry, first they discredit you. then they say you did something illegal and you're immoral. then you appear like you're lashing out at a government- trying to blame them instead of atoning for past transgressions.
- amirmc 12y ago
  In an era of 'parallel construction', you build a separate case and use that as leverage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - mattmanser 12y ago
    That's simply blackmail, not 'parallel construction'.
    - dijit 12y ago
      Just as 'Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder' is simply 'Shell Shock' Language changes depending on how you want the person to feel about a subject. if you want people to hate and revile someone for doing something you do call it something strong and fierce (blackmail) if you want to do something yourself make it sound lawful (IE; parallel construction).
    - fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
      It'll get the job done.
- mike_hearn 12y ago
  I have read that the FISA court can indeed hold sometime in contempt secretly. For all we know if Yahoo had continued to resist their executives would have simply started disappearing.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

ntsb 12y ago

Seeing how the gov't can seemingly pull fines and penalties out from thin air (a la Russia Sanctions still ongoing and new), I think it's safe to say the $250K per day would have only been just the beginning.

madaxe_again 12y ago

They'd lock up the execs for "embezzlement". I could tell you a story about this squeaky clean guy I know who's in prison for fraud, because he refused to comply with a secret court order... but I can't, because I don't want to join him. I could tell you another story about a barrister I know who had his career destroyed and his wife "suicided" for refusing to do certain things around a trial in the UK - but again, I fear repercussions should I say anything. In fact, this is probably too much.

cryoshon 12y ago
You seem to have an inside perspective. Care to share more?
- madaxe_again 12y ago
  Not really, sorry. I mean, yes, desperately, but I fear repercussions for the individuals concerned, myself, their families, etc. Suffice to say that of what you read in the press about the misdoings of important individual X should be taken with a heaping of salt and a cynical eye. We live in the age of assassination without murder.
  - cryoshon 12y ago
    What about over Tor?
    - madaxe_again 12y ago
      Nay. It isn't really about me, or what I communicate, rather that by discussing the detail it'd make it abundantly clear who I'm talking about - and I do not want to enhance either of their miseries. Additionally, merely by dint of me being able to know these things about these people it would make clear who I am, as I dare say there are a limited number of folks who have these two in their graph, and an even more limited number who are publicly anti-establishment, and thus potentially negate my ability to do anything positive about this. Sorry. If I do opt to go public with these tales it'll be via the Grauniad or somesuch, as only with significant clout, correlation and voice will there be any impact - otherwise it'll just be reburied in disinformation.