7 ms·

Tech Has a Depression Problem

60 points by dfc 12y ago

kiyoto 12y ago
Here is what I consider to be a more accurate portrayal: Depression is an issue that plagues pretty much all of the educated America, which significantly overlaps with tech these days.
- JeremyMorgan 12y ago
  I came here to say this. We're not the only industry that suffers from it. In fact many of the traits that make someone a good leader or unusually innovative are the same traits that can trigger depression. We only have anecdotal evidence at this point but I'm confident it will be proven someday.
  - zokier 12y ago
    > We're not the only industry that suffers from it The article actually acknowledges that: > Depression is hardly exclusive to tech. The disorder is the leading cause of disability worldwide, according to the World Health Organization, and costs employers billions of dollars a year in lost revenue. Multiple people I talked to for this story pointed out that entertainers are also known for melancholy. For writers and artists, neuroses are practically required.
- serve_yay 12y ago
  Plus this article focuses on the depression founders face, but most of us aren't founders. And while I wouldn't say starting a company should make you depressed, it should be hard in some sense. There is an idea that it will suck for a while and then you'll succeed, or more generally that the suck has some sort of timebox around it. But for people with jobs, we just... have jobs. Until we retire or die. So depression in that case is a bit more of a problem, I'd say.
- mikeleeorg 12y ago
  So true. I think it's the fact that the general public doesn't think startup founders (and employees) face depression that is the story. But the same can be true of many other professions too: doctors, lawyers, consultants, etc.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  Why just educated America? People who are uneducated may still be depressed, but less educated about mental illness to try and address it.
  - canvia 12y ago
    As they say, ignorance is bliss. If you never educate yourself about how other people in the world live and how your lifestyle impacts them, or how the food you eat is made, or the actions that governments take on your behalf, you won't feel empathy or anger about all the injustices and abuses that occur. Once you realize how much pain exists, and how much of it is a result of your action or inaction, then the real depression starts.
    - jiggy2011 12y ago
      I don't know how much depression is caused by external and abstract world events and how much is caused by more personal events. People are more likely to become depressed after a divorce for example.
    - ealloc 12y ago
      Actually my impression is that poorer people are more likely to be depressed. Consider the high rate of suicide among poor Indian farmers, or the high number of homeless with mental illness. A quick google search for studies of the correlation between wealth and suicide seem to confirm my view, eg "a 2009 Gallup survey [shows] the rate of depression is nearly twice as high for Americans making less than $24,000 a year than it is for those with annual incomes above $60,000." Of course, the real story is more complicated: It seems the correlation is much less clear for poor regions than for poor individuals, and I saw some suggestions that poor people living next to wealthy people were more likely to commit suicide.
      - groby_b 12y ago
        That might be confusing cause and effect. It's not that homeless people are more likely to be mentally ill, it's that the mentally ill are often homeless. And that's by choice - we've decided that we'd rather not give a shit about mentally ill people, because it might cost money. (Cf. the killing of the Mental Health Systems Act)
- joncooper 12y ago
  If you're interested in this, definitely read the book _Suicide_ by the sociologist Emile Durkheim. (Published in 1897). It's an incredibly incisive analysis of several of the flavors of depressive thoughts that smart folks have. One of the top 3 books I've ever read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)
AdmiralAsshat 12y ago
Not mentioned in the article: those young people in the tech industry with a stable, boring job working for a conglomerate company and depressed by constantly observing our adventurous peers trying to change the world in hip start-ups, wondering if we made the wrong decision. Grass is always greener, I suppose. Or depression is just infectious.
- pkorzeniewski 12y ago
  Not every startup is trying to "change the world" or "become a millionaire" - some just want to create a stable, profitable business with a reasonable paychecks for the employees.
- nether 12y ago
  I've slowly felt my soul being crushed after five years at a small, Office Space-esque mechanical engineering firm in an LA suburb. Our perks include two 10-minute breaks per day where we can make personal calls, walk around the parking lot, or close our office doors. Actual methods of analysis draw heavily from '70s to early '90s engineering. I sound horribly millennial (which I am) to complain about these things while I'm making six figures at age 29, but it feels stifling and inhumane to work like this.
  - Chinjut 12y ago
    You oughtn't feel guilty about finding your situation stifling and soul-crushing. (If that's horribly millenial, well, perhaps millenials have managed to see the matter clearly. Every insight starts in some generation.)
  - dismal2 12y ago
    were you chained to your desk or something? what do you mean 10 minute breaks?
  - atom-morgan 12y ago
    I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way with my first job as a developer out of college. I'd always considered myself a mentally stable person until _that job_. Like you, I had the feeling that my complaints were those of "millennials" but I couldn't keep myself there. I eventually left and I'm glad I did.
mcguire 12y ago
"Tech circles" == "startups"?
zoba 12y ago
This article focuses on founders, and I've wondered if depression in founders is actually less "Founders get depressed" and more "Depressed people become founders". My theory is this: being regularly depressed causes folks to regularly fix their depression. They say "What is going to make me happy?", and then they push their lives farther. Extreme amounts of money represent freedom to do what one pleases when one pleases - and how do you get that money? By founding a successful company. And its not just the money - its the satisfaction that you've done something with your life. I've often wondered why humans get depressed, and I've seen articles on depression being an evolutionary advantage. If its the case that depression drives people to work harder (as is the case for me), then it may be true that it is an evolutionary advantage (I certainly inherited it from my family). This may then also mean that there are a significant number of founders who are just going to be depressed, solitude/stress/success or not. I'd be interested to see how many founders have a family history of depression.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  >>If its the case that depression drives people to work harder (as is the case for me), then it may be true that it is an evolutionary advantage (I certainly inherited it from my family). Depression can also cause people to commit suicide, which makes it somewhat difficult to frame it as an evolutionary advantage.
  - zoba 12y ago
    Yeah I agree: it seems to be a weird double edged sword. Simultaneously pushing people further, while also (in some cases) causing them to fall infinitely back. I think the percentage of people who kill themselves versus the broader number of people who have depression is small.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    It depends on how this averages out. If on average the benefits (increased productivity leading to increased mating) outweight the drawbacks (people committing suicide), then it still might be an advantage. Evolution doesn't care about individuals, it's a statistical process.
tesq 12y ago
It's surprising that one would be depressed working 10hr+ days for little to no pay chasing what, as time goes on, seems to be a dubious dream to make someone else very rich.
jrapdx3 12y ago
Fact is "depression" is among the most prevalent illness among humans, and a leading cause of disability world-wide. It affects people in all regions though incidence is higher in industrialized countries for unknown reasons. Part of the problem in talking about the condition is that the word "depression" may refer to a variety of feelings or behavioral states--in everyday usage it's not a precise term at all. But in the context of the article, I infer the issue is "clinical depression", a very serious illness that has specific diagnostic meaning. Distinguishing depression-as-illness from a passing mood, or transient discouragement is important. It's normal to have these moods at times of loss, high stress, etc., but not normal when it becomes persistent and affects thinking, energy, motivation, interests, or physiological rhythms. As the article points out, suicidal thinking and action can be associated with depression. The mortality rate of severe depression is high, on the order of 15%, a decidedly non-trivial matter. One more statistic to point out is the cost burden of depression. A very recent study estimated depression costs the US nearly $200 billion per year, more than cancer ($131 billion) or diabetes ($171 billion) annually. Considering that a minority of patients with depression receive adequate treatment, we can surmise much of the high cost of depression could be reduced by earlier intervention. Depression is a treatable disease, the majority of sufferers respond at least moderately well to medication and non-medication therapies. Treatment doesn't always work as well as we'd like, but the problem is not being neglected. Since there's so much at stake, it's an extremely active field of research; our treatment tools will get better. The important message is depression is a real illness that can be and should be vigorously treated. Ignoring reality does not make it go away. No one is immune, not entrepreneurs, programmers, engineers, doctors, janitors, or the fabulously wealthy. Let's not continue to let a treatable illness turn into tragedy.
- peterwwillis 12y ago
  Treating depression like an illness makes it into a medical problem, and medical treatment is simply not the best recourse for a large number of people with even 'clinical depression'. The huge variety of causes and its transience makes it much less like other medical diseases, and so trying to treat it like a medical disease often won't work. While I agree that medication is for many people an appropriate way to treat some forms of depression, it's certainly not a panacea. You don't treat diabetes by just taking medicine; you also don't eat crap that fucks with your blood sugar. If you have scoliosis, you don't just wear a back brace during childhood; you also avoid trying out for the football team. If your family has a history of melanomas, you stay out of the sun and put on sun lotion. It's important to note that some of these treatments are not strictly 'medical treatments' - they're ways of living your life that reduce the impact of the disease. Just talking about disease is incredibly morbid. So to my mind, thinking of yourself as having a disease is actually the opposite of what you want to treat depression. Sure, it's comforting to have a way to define oneself in order to understand what's going wrong. But a negative focus on yourself is really the wrong way to go about reducing the impact of depression. Yes, studies and medications and non-medication therapies and prescribed treatments are all useful in 'combating the disease', until you realize that it isn't one single disease. It's a human condition that varies in cause from chemical imbalances to unexpected life changes, and is incredibly difficult to diagnose the root cause of, not to mention find a workable treatment for. Relating the emotional state of humans to the working of their organs is a bit like relating an Indy 500 race's lap stats to the engines in the cars on the track. So until we establish an actual field of science that focuses on every conceivable treatment of every form of depression, could we all please stop being so clinical about the whole thing?
rsobers 12y ago
Certainly depression in tech is real and people suffering deserve help (and can hopefully get it given their station in life). But when you strive for hyper-ambitious outcomes, whether it be selling your company for $2B, trying to change the world, or training to become a world champion fighter, you're likely going to suffer some injuries that you might not fully recover from. I feel for all the people who are depressed AND struggling to find their next meal--working in fast food or in factories, being treated as if they were less-than-human. I find it super-hard to get worked up when we founders and startup employees get to have health insurance, good salaries, free food and education, and a chance to win the lottery.
- keithpeter 12y ago
  You have perspective People who are suffering from clinical depression may not have. The pain will be the same irrespective of their position in society. I know what you mean, many of my (adult) students are doing a couple of minimum wage jobs, looking after children and/or parents and trying to study. Not easy.
  - lutusp 12y ago
    > You have perspective. People who are suffering from clinical depression may not have. You're using "perspective" in an unclear way here, as though it means optimism or a long view. In fact, studies show that depressed people often have better, more accurate, perceptions of reality than non-depressed people. This state of being even has an associated theory or school of thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism Quote: "Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs,[2][3][4] depressive realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals’ appraisals are positively biased." If this idea turns out to have scientific merit (which it doesn't at the moment), I would find that depressing.
- yupmetoo 12y ago
  So you're saying its not a real problem because startup people have resources?
cschneid 12y ago
There is a discussion forum specifically for this: http://devpressed.com/ http://devpressed.com/ Please check it out, and also any of the talks [1] by its founder, Greg Baugues. It's from a ruby conference, but is applicable to all developers. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFIa-Mc2KSk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFIa-Mc2KSk)
thegenius 12y ago
Warren Buffett's partner Charles Munger says it best in this interview (time linked). He's talking about wall street executives, and the envy they have over one anothers' successes, but the same applies to tech founders. "If somebody makes a lot of money, or reports a lot of money... Let them!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RS_PqudxU#t=1460 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RS_PqudxU#t=1460
mattew 12y ago
Are there any good online or real world assessment tools out there to identify people who may be suffering from depression / more predisposed to be depressed?
thathonkey 12y ago
There's also a strong positive correlation between incidence of depression and intelligence.
- rmetzler 12y ago
  True. Also depression seems to be an illness human beings may inherit. Physical exercises are known to help depression. Sitting in front of a computer screen all day long without much social interaction seems to make it worse (at least for me).
  - thathonkey 12y ago
    Of the serious mental illnesses, they're almost always inherited.
dsp1234 12y ago
Greg Baugues from Twilio gave a powerful talk titled "Devs and Depression" at Laracon this year. He talks about his personal experience, and about breaking out from the underneath the stigma of mental health issues for developers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6x9wmlFz_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6x9wmlFz_c
michaelochurch 12y ago
A fair number of VCs perform back-channel references (references the candidate didn't provide) and the main reason for that is to filter out anyone who's ever suffered from depression or anxiety. Large firms are in on this discrimination, too. It's illegal to ask about these disorders when hiring, but if you acqui-hire from investors who legally can probe into those questions, it's a nice little loop-hole. I don't think it really does any good, because all else being equal, I'd want to a person of good character who fought a mental disability and beat it. That's not easy to do. Beating depression or bipolar or panic disorder is way harder (and says more about a person's fortitude) than building Snapchat. The truth is that many people with mental illnesses are far above normal in functionality when not affected. Still, this is just another thing that is changing in Silicon Valley. The old Silicon Valley (HP, not Snapchat) driven forward by passionate, creative people and many had these illnesses. The new one (Snapchat, Clinkle) is all about image management and favors low-variance, reliable mediocrities.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  You assume the VCs are good at spotting depression and anxiety. It doesn't seem obvious to me that this is the case.
  - michaelochurch 12y ago
    I don't assume that they're good at it. I know that they try to do it, and what their methods are. I think their methods are, at best, modestly effective and, even with that, it's not clear that selecting against low-level (and usually manageable with age) mental health issues has any value, and it just might be counterproductive (antifragility argument here).
clumsysmurf 12y ago
I'm very worried about the destruction of our environment. Not one to be into spiritual things like 'Spiritual Ecology' but I think there is some truth to it: we all have some connection to the earth and nature. What we eat is our most profound expression of our connection to the physical world. But it goes further of course, to how we treat nature, wildlife, etc. As the environment becomes more polluted with toxins, light, noise -- as it becomes more scarce - I think many of us will realize the hard way how important it is to our psychological well being. The following has worked very well for me, I hope others benefit also: * running 45min-1hour each day high intensity (80% HRM) (on the trails of course, away from concrete and civilization) * playing in the dirt (1) * being around animals / Farm Therapy * make sure you treat your microbiota well * if depression has neuroinflammation as a cause, consider Tumeric, possibly one that will cross the blood brain barrier (2) * getting good sleep (1) http://modernfarmer.com/2014/08/dirt-make-us-happy-getting-hands-ground-better-prozac/ http://modernfarmer.com/2014/08/dirt-make-us-happy-getting-h... (2) http://truttmd.com/curcumin-caveat-emptor-not-all-brands-are-created-equal/ http://truttmd.com/curcumin-caveat-emptor-not-all-brands-are...
- capisce 12y ago
  Just a warning about running that much: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-much-running-tied-to-shorter-lifespan-studies-find/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-much-running-tied-to-shorter... They say it's the first five minutes per day that give the most benefits: http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-five-minutes-running-per-day-extends-life-20140728-story.html http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-five-min... Maybe you should consider trading some of that running for walking instead.
yupmetoo 12y ago
Seems to me like there's plenty of help around if you're a founder, but not very much if you're just a programmer, especially a relatively new one. I don't have many contacts for career advice and frequently have to kick myself to maintain my drive - it seems to ask for help would be to invite a bunch of people to tell me my skills are shit.

60 points by dfc 12y ago

Here is what I consider to be a more accurate portrayal: Depression is an issue that plagues pretty much all of the educated America, which significantly overlaps with tech these days.

JeremyMorgan 12y ago
I came here to say this. We're not the only industry that suffers from it. In fact many of the traits that make someone a good leader or unusually innovative are the same traits that can trigger depression. We only have anecdotal evidence at this point but I'm confident it will be proven someday.
- zokier 12y ago
  > We're not the only industry that suffers from it The article actually acknowledges that: > Depression is hardly exclusive to tech. The disorder is the leading cause of disability worldwide, according to the World Health Organization, and costs employers billions of dollars a year in lost revenue. Multiple people I talked to for this story pointed out that entertainers are also known for melancholy. For writers and artists, neuroses are practically required.
serve_yay 12y ago
Plus this article focuses on the depression founders face, but most of us aren't founders. And while I wouldn't say starting a company should make you depressed, it should be hard in some sense. There is an idea that it will suck for a while and then you'll succeed, or more generally that the suck has some sort of timebox around it. But for people with jobs, we just... have jobs. Until we retire or die. So depression in that case is a bit more of a problem, I'd say.
mikeleeorg 12y ago
So true. I think it's the fact that the general public doesn't think startup founders (and employees) face depression that is the story. But the same can be true of many other professions too: doctors, lawyers, consultants, etc.
jiggy2011 12y ago
Why just educated America? People who are uneducated may still be depressed, but less educated about mental illness to try and address it.
- canvia 12y ago
  As they say, ignorance is bliss. If you never educate yourself about how other people in the world live and how your lifestyle impacts them, or how the food you eat is made, or the actions that governments take on your behalf, you won't feel empathy or anger about all the injustices and abuses that occur. Once you realize how much pain exists, and how much of it is a result of your action or inaction, then the real depression starts.
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    I don't know how much depression is caused by external and abstract world events and how much is caused by more personal events. People are more likely to become depressed after a divorce for example.
  - ealloc 12y ago
    Actually my impression is that poorer people are more likely to be depressed. Consider the high rate of suicide among poor Indian farmers, or the high number of homeless with mental illness. A quick google search for studies of the correlation between wealth and suicide seem to confirm my view, eg "a 2009 Gallup survey [shows] the rate of depression is nearly twice as high for Americans making less than $24,000 a year than it is for those with annual incomes above $60,000." Of course, the real story is more complicated: It seems the correlation is much less clear for poor regions than for poor individuals, and I saw some suggestions that poor people living next to wealthy people were more likely to commit suicide.
    - groby_b 12y ago
      That might be confusing cause and effect. It's not that homeless people are more likely to be mentally ill, it's that the mentally ill are often homeless. And that's by choice - we've decided that we'd rather not give a shit about mentally ill people, because it might cost money. (Cf. the killing of the Mental Health Systems Act)
joncooper 12y ago
If you're interested in this, definitely read the book _Suicide_ by the sociologist Emile Durkheim. (Published in 1897). It's an incredibly incisive analysis of several of the flavors of depressive thoughts that smart folks have. One of the top 3 books I've ever read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

AdmiralAsshat 12y ago

Not mentioned in the article: those young people in the tech industry with a stable, boring job working for a conglomerate company and depressed by constantly observing our adventurous peers trying to change the world in hip start-ups, wondering if we made the wrong decision. Grass is always greener, I suppose. Or depression is just infectious.

pkorzeniewski 12y ago
Not every startup is trying to "change the world" or "become a millionaire" - some just want to create a stable, profitable business with a reasonable paychecks for the employees.
nether 12y ago
I've slowly felt my soul being crushed after five years at a small, Office Space-esque mechanical engineering firm in an LA suburb. Our perks include two 10-minute breaks per day where we can make personal calls, walk around the parking lot, or close our office doors. Actual methods of analysis draw heavily from '70s to early '90s engineering. I sound horribly millennial (which I am) to complain about these things while I'm making six figures at age 29, but it feels stifling and inhumane to work like this.
- Chinjut 12y ago
  You oughtn't feel guilty about finding your situation stifling and soul-crushing. (If that's horribly millenial, well, perhaps millenials have managed to see the matter clearly. Every insight starts in some generation.)
- dismal2 12y ago
  were you chained to your desk or something? what do you mean 10 minute breaks?
- atom-morgan 12y ago
  I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way with my first job as a developer out of college. I'd always considered myself a mentally stable person until _that job_. Like you, I had the feeling that my complaints were those of "millennials" but I couldn't keep myself there. I eventually left and I'm glad I did.

mcguire 12y ago

"Tech circles" == "startups"?

zoba 12y ago

This article focuses on founders, and I've wondered if depression in founders is actually less "Founders get depressed" and more "Depressed people become founders". My theory is this: being regularly depressed causes folks to regularly fix their depression. They say "What is going to make me happy?", and then they push their lives farther. Extreme amounts of money represent freedom to do what one pleases when one pleases - and how do you get that money? By founding a successful company. And its not just the money - its the satisfaction that you've done something with your life. I've often wondered why humans get depressed, and I've seen articles on depression being an evolutionary advantage. If its the case that depression drives people to work harder (as is the case for me), then it may be true that it is an evolutionary advantage (I certainly inherited it from my family). This may then also mean that there are a significant number of founders who are just going to be depressed, solitude/stress/success or not. I'd be interested to see how many founders have a family history of depression.

enraged_camel 12y ago
>>If its the case that depression drives people to work harder (as is the case for me), then it may be true that it is an evolutionary advantage (I certainly inherited it from my family). Depression can also cause people to commit suicide, which makes it somewhat difficult to frame it as an evolutionary advantage.
- zoba 12y ago
  Yeah I agree: it seems to be a weird double edged sword. Simultaneously pushing people further, while also (in some cases) causing them to fall infinitely back. I think the percentage of people who kill themselves versus the broader number of people who have depression is small.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  It depends on how this averages out. If on average the benefits (increased productivity leading to increased mating) outweight the drawbacks (people committing suicide), then it still might be an advantage. Evolution doesn't care about individuals, it's a statistical process.

tesq 12y ago

It's surprising that one would be depressed working 10hr+ days for little to no pay chasing what, as time goes on, seems to be a dubious dream to make someone else very rich.

jrapdx3 12y ago

Fact is "depression" is among the most prevalent illness among humans, and a leading cause of disability world-wide. It affects people in all regions though incidence is higher in industrialized countries for unknown reasons. Part of the problem in talking about the condition is that the word "depression" may refer to a variety of feelings or behavioral states--in everyday usage it's not a precise term at all. But in the context of the article, I infer the issue is "clinical depression", a very serious illness that has specific diagnostic meaning. Distinguishing depression-as-illness from a passing mood, or transient discouragement is important. It's normal to have these moods at times of loss, high stress, etc., but not normal when it becomes persistent and affects thinking, energy, motivation, interests, or physiological rhythms. As the article points out, suicidal thinking and action can be associated with depression. The mortality rate of severe depression is high, on the order of 15%, a decidedly non-trivial matter. One more statistic to point out is the cost burden of depression. A very recent study estimated depression costs the US nearly $200 billion per year, more than cancer ($131 billion) or diabetes ($171 billion) annually. Considering that a minority of patients with depression receive adequate treatment, we can surmise much of the high cost of depression could be reduced by earlier intervention. Depression is a treatable disease, the majority of sufferers respond at least moderately well to medication and non-medication therapies. Treatment doesn't always work as well as we'd like, but the problem is not being neglected. Since there's so much at stake, it's an extremely active field of research; our treatment tools will get better. The important message is depression is a real illness that can be and should be vigorously treated. Ignoring reality does not make it go away. No one is immune, not entrepreneurs, programmers, engineers, doctors, janitors, or the fabulously wealthy. Let's not continue to let a treatable illness turn into tragedy.

peterwwillis 12y ago
Treating depression like an illness makes it into a medical problem, and medical treatment is simply not the best recourse for a large number of people with even 'clinical depression'. The huge variety of causes and its transience makes it much less like other medical diseases, and so trying to treat it like a medical disease often won't work. While I agree that medication is for many people an appropriate way to treat some forms of depression, it's certainly not a panacea. You don't treat diabetes by just taking medicine; you also don't eat crap that fucks with your blood sugar. If you have scoliosis, you don't just wear a back brace during childhood; you also avoid trying out for the football team. If your family has a history of melanomas, you stay out of the sun and put on sun lotion. It's important to note that some of these treatments are not strictly 'medical treatments' - they're ways of living your life that reduce the impact of the disease. Just talking about disease is incredibly morbid. So to my mind, thinking of yourself as having a disease is actually the opposite of what you want to treat depression. Sure, it's comforting to have a way to define oneself in order to understand what's going wrong. But a negative focus on yourself is really the wrong way to go about reducing the impact of depression. Yes, studies and medications and non-medication therapies and prescribed treatments are all useful in 'combating the disease', until you realize that it isn't one single disease. It's a human condition that varies in cause from chemical imbalances to unexpected life changes, and is incredibly difficult to diagnose the root cause of, not to mention find a workable treatment for. Relating the emotional state of humans to the working of their organs is a bit like relating an Indy 500 race's lap stats to the engines in the cars on the track. So until we establish an actual field of science that focuses on every conceivable treatment of every form of depression, could we all please stop being so clinical about the whole thing?

rsobers 12y ago

Certainly depression in tech is real and people suffering deserve help (and can hopefully get it given their station in life). But when you strive for hyper-ambitious outcomes, whether it be selling your company for $2B, trying to change the world, or training to become a world champion fighter, you're likely going to suffer some injuries that you might not fully recover from. I feel for all the people who are depressed AND struggling to find their next meal--working in fast food or in factories, being treated as if they were less-than-human. I find it super-hard to get worked up when we founders and startup employees get to have health insurance, good salaries, free food and education, and a chance to win the lottery.

keithpeter 12y ago
You have perspective People who are suffering from clinical depression may not have. The pain will be the same irrespective of their position in society. I know what you mean, many of my (adult) students are doing a couple of minimum wage jobs, looking after children and/or parents and trying to study. Not easy.
- lutusp 12y ago
  > You have perspective. People who are suffering from clinical depression may not have. You're using "perspective" in an unclear way here, as though it means optimism or a long view. In fact, studies show that depressed people often have better, more accurate, perceptions of reality than non-depressed people. This state of being even has an associated theory or school of thought: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism Quote: "Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs,[2][3][4] depressive realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals’ appraisals are positively biased." If this idea turns out to have scientific merit (which it doesn't at the moment), I would find that depressing.
yupmetoo 12y ago
So you're saying its not a real problem because startup people have resources?

cschneid 12y ago

There is a discussion forum specifically for this: http://devpressed.com/ http://devpressed.com/ Please check it out, and also any of the talks [1] by its founder, Greg Baugues. It's from a ruby conference, but is applicable to all developers. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFIa-Mc2KSk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFIa-Mc2KSk)

thegenius 12y ago

Warren Buffett's partner Charles Munger says it best in this interview (time linked). He's talking about wall street executives, and the envy they have over one anothers' successes, but the same applies to tech founders. "If somebody makes a lot of money, or reports a lot of money... Let them!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RS_PqudxU#t=1460 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6RS_PqudxU#t=1460

mattew 12y ago

Are there any good online or real world assessment tools out there to identify people who may be suffering from depression / more predisposed to be depressed?

thathonkey 12y ago

There's also a strong positive correlation between incidence of depression and intelligence.

rmetzler 12y ago
True. Also depression seems to be an illness human beings may inherit. Physical exercises are known to help depression. Sitting in front of a computer screen all day long without much social interaction seems to make it worse (at least for me).
- thathonkey 12y ago
  Of the serious mental illnesses, they're almost always inherited.

dsp1234 12y ago

Greg Baugues from Twilio gave a powerful talk titled "Devs and Depression" at Laracon this year. He talks about his personal experience, and about breaking out from the underneath the stigma of mental health issues for developers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6x9wmlFz_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6x9wmlFz_c

michaelochurch 12y ago

A fair number of VCs perform back-channel references (references the candidate didn't provide) and the main reason for that is to filter out anyone who's ever suffered from depression or anxiety. Large firms are in on this discrimination, too. It's illegal to ask about these disorders when hiring, but if you acqui-hire from investors who legally can probe into those questions, it's a nice little loop-hole. I don't think it really does any good, because all else being equal, I'd want to a person of good character who fought a mental disability and beat it. That's not easy to do. Beating depression or bipolar or panic disorder is way harder (and says more about a person's fortitude) than building Snapchat. The truth is that many people with mental illnesses are far above normal in functionality when not affected. Still, this is just another thing that is changing in Silicon Valley. The old Silicon Valley (HP, not Snapchat) driven forward by passionate, creative people and many had these illnesses. The new one (Snapchat, Clinkle) is all about image management and favors low-variance, reliable mediocrities.

maxerickson 12y ago
You assume the VCs are good at spotting depression and anxiety. It doesn't seem obvious to me that this is the case.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  I don't assume that they're good at it. I know that they try to do it, and what their methods are. I think their methods are, at best, modestly effective and, even with that, it's not clear that selecting against low-level (and usually manageable with age) mental health issues has any value, and it just might be counterproductive (antifragility argument here).

clumsysmurf 12y ago

I'm very worried about the destruction of our environment. Not one to be into spiritual things like 'Spiritual Ecology' but I think there is some truth to it: we all have some connection to the earth and nature. What we eat is our most profound expression of our connection to the physical world. But it goes further of course, to how we treat nature, wildlife, etc. As the environment becomes more polluted with toxins, light, noise -- as it becomes more scarce - I think many of us will realize the hard way how important it is to our psychological well being. The following has worked very well for me, I hope others benefit also: * running 45min-1hour each day high intensity (80% HRM) (on the trails of course, away from concrete and civilization) * playing in the dirt (1) * being around animals / Farm Therapy * make sure you treat your microbiota well * if depression has neuroinflammation as a cause, consider Tumeric, possibly one that will cross the blood brain barrier (2) * getting good sleep (1) http://modernfarmer.com/2014/08/dirt-make-us-happy-getting-hands-ground-better-prozac/ http://modernfarmer.com/2014/08/dirt-make-us-happy-getting-h... (2) http://truttmd.com/curcumin-caveat-emptor-not-all-brands-are-created-equal/ http://truttmd.com/curcumin-caveat-emptor-not-all-brands-are...

capisce 12y ago
Just a warning about running that much: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-much-running-tied-to-shorter-lifespan-studies-find/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/too-much-running-tied-to-shorter... They say it's the first five minutes per day that give the most benefits: http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-five-minutes-running-per-day-extends-life-20140728-story.html http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-five-min... Maybe you should consider trading some of that running for walking instead.

yupmetoo 12y ago

Seems to me like there's plenty of help around if you're a founder, but not very much if you're just a programmer, especially a relatively new one. I don't have many contacts for career advice and frequently have to kick myself to maintain my drive - it seems to ask for help would be to invite a bunch of people to tell me my skills are shit.