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Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and u

Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and unjust it is in our time. That said, does anyone know what proposed solutions are? When the author talks of abolishing the prison system in exchange for higher crime rates (and potentially even more deaths by the state), does he literally mean we should close all prisons (like he seems to say near the end)? I'd love to see more articles / writing about this, and proposed solutions with specifics about how many people could be removed from the prison system, estimates for increases in capital punishment (if arguing we should have more), etc.

kazagistar 12y ago
The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jessaustin 12y ago
  Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.
  - Ntrails 12y ago
    Already in the Prison Treatment Act of 1945, the view was expressed that the deprivation of freedom itself should be regarded as the penal element of a prison sentence and not the actual prison experience itself. Thus, the PTA of 1974 states explicitly that an inmate shall be treated with respect for his or her human dignity. [1] As ever when I look for an country that I think will be an example of doing something well, I start with the nordics. And I see that Sweden has recently closed 4 prisons because they don't have enough prisoners to fill them any more. [2] I would love to hear counter points if my cursory reading has missed something - but in general I was once again impressed by the attitudes I see there. [1] http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/Site/documents/Stavern/29_Stavern_Report%20Sweden.pdf http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/S... [2]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-prisons-number-inmates-plummets http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-p...
    - reitanqild 12y ago
      Counterpoint: the Norwegian government is considering hiring capacity in the Netherlands for 700 long term prisoners. Sweden is said to have considered hiring capacity as well but decided against because of the legal minefield surrounding this topic. (Edit: Since this is possibly controversial, here are a few Norwegian sources: https://www.google.com/search?q=soning+i+Nederland https://www.google.com/search?q=soning+i+Nederland )
  - kazagistar 12y ago
    Agreed. But the reform proposed in the article stated unconditional "abolishment" as the goal. That is crazy.
    - hawleyal 12y ago
      So systemic and institutional torture is fine, as long as the rest of us are marginally "safer".
- hawleyal 12y ago
  The money for this is not available. It is an ideal that cannot be attained.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    The current system actually costs more to society, so the money is definitely available.
angersock 12y ago
The only way to get this fixed (peacefully) is to raise a ruckus and get the public to fight their elected officials into Doing the Right Thing. You can bet your ass that the number of dollars able to be rallied for this purpose is dwarfed by the incumbent interests. Further, it's trivial to say "Do you want to have your kid growing up next to an evil ~=felon=~?" and sway votes, because people are not rational above family-unit decisions. So, understanding that it's probably a hopeless cause, the best thing you can do is support ex-felons, help them find work and learn useful skills, and vote whenever possible for anything that helps curtail or curb the police state. That means voting for legalization of everything, full stop. That means voting for reduced surveillance powers, full stop. That means voting for less defense spending, full stop. That means voting for fewer crimes and smaller police forces, full stop. Anything else is playing into the hands of the oppressors.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  Problem is, prisons like all government institutions are controlled by fads and fears and money - Senators don't do anything until votes are at stake or campaigning dollars. So nothing happens for a long time, and then Bang some extreme measure is passed to show that they care or something. We closed the mental institutions and released folks into the general population, and that didn't work very well. Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm. This doesn't follow. Prisons are not equivalent to mental health institutions; there's a lot more at play there.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      After the mental health facilities were closed, they pretty much became the same thing.
tormeh 12y ago
The max-security ones need to be kept. Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. Punishment has no effect on them - what we need is to lock them up for life. But that's maybe 5% or less of the prison population. Legalize drugs, and have a social security system that means no one has to steal and suddenly almost everyone else is out. The remainder need rehabilitation, which probably needs to happen in a prison.
- candu 12y ago
  > Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. I'd say that's a difficult assertion to prove in a system that provides every incentive for recidivism. In addition, how would you (or anyone else) fairly evaluate who falls into this category?
  - tormeh 12y ago
    A brainscan for psychopathy would be a first step. Honestly, I would outsource that to psychologists.
    - baddox 12y ago
      As far as I know, there is no "brainscan for psycopathy." Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners.
      - lutusp 12y ago
        > Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners. Or anyone else, for that matter. Tom Widiger, who served as head of research for DSM-IV, says "There are lots of studies which show that clinicians diagnose most of their patients with one particular disorder and really don't systematically assess for other disorders. They have a bias in reference to the disorder that they are especially interested in treating and believe that most of their patients have." The reason should be obvious -- unlike medicine, psychological diagnoses rely on assessing symptoms, not the detection and treatment of causes. Psychiatrists and psychologists who serve on parole boards have a record no better than chance. When they say that a person is no longer a threat and merits release, based on their accuracy and predictive track record, they might as well flip a coin.
hawleyal 12y ago
What would happen if there was not a prison system at all?

kazagistar 12y ago

The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jessaustin 12y ago
Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.
- Ntrails 12y ago
  Already in the Prison Treatment Act of 1945, the view was expressed that the deprivation of freedom itself should be regarded as the penal element of a prison sentence and not the actual prison experience itself. Thus, the PTA of 1974 states explicitly that an inmate shall be treated with respect for his or her human dignity. [1] As ever when I look for an country that I think will be an example of doing something well, I start with the nordics. And I see that Sweden has recently closed 4 prisons because they don't have enough prisoners to fill them any more. [2] I would love to hear counter points if my cursory reading has missed something - but in general I was once again impressed by the attitudes I see there. [1] http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/Site/documents/Stavern/29_Stavern_Report%20Sweden.pdf http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/S... [2]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-prisons-number-inmates-plummets http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-p...
  - reitanqild 12y ago
    Counterpoint: the Norwegian government is considering hiring capacity in the Netherlands for 700 long term prisoners. Sweden is said to have considered hiring capacity as well but decided against because of the legal minefield surrounding this topic. (Edit: Since this is possibly controversial, here are a few Norwegian sources: https://www.google.com/search?q=soning+i+Nederland https://www.google.com/search?q=soning+i+Nederland )
- kazagistar 12y ago
  Agreed. But the reform proposed in the article stated unconditional "abolishment" as the goal. That is crazy.
  - hawleyal 12y ago
    So systemic and institutional torture is fine, as long as the rest of us are marginally "safer".
hawleyal 12y ago
The money for this is not available. It is an ideal that cannot be attained.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  The current system actually costs more to society, so the money is definitely available.

angersock 12y ago

The only way to get this fixed (peacefully) is to raise a ruckus and get the public to fight their elected officials into Doing the Right Thing. You can bet your ass that the number of dollars able to be rallied for this purpose is dwarfed by the incumbent interests. Further, it's trivial to say "Do you want to have your kid growing up next to an evil ~=felon=~?" and sway votes, because people are not rational above family-unit decisions. So, understanding that it's probably a hopeless cause, the best thing you can do is support ex-felons, help them find work and learn useful skills, and vote whenever possible for anything that helps curtail or curb the police state. That means voting for legalization of everything, full stop. That means voting for reduced surveillance powers, full stop. That means voting for less defense spending, full stop. That means voting for fewer crimes and smaller police forces, full stop. Anything else is playing into the hands of the oppressors.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Problem is, prisons like all government institutions are controlled by fads and fears and money - Senators don't do anything until votes are at stake or campaigning dollars. So nothing happens for a long time, and then Bang some extreme measure is passed to show that they care or something. We closed the mental institutions and released folks into the general population, and that didn't work very well. Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm.
- angersock 12y ago
  Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm. This doesn't follow. Prisons are not equivalent to mental health institutions; there's a lot more at play there.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    After the mental health facilities were closed, they pretty much became the same thing.

tormeh 12y ago

The max-security ones need to be kept. Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. Punishment has no effect on them - what we need is to lock them up for life. But that's maybe 5% or less of the prison population. Legalize drugs, and have a social security system that means no one has to steal and suddenly almost everyone else is out. The remainder need rehabilitation, which probably needs to happen in a prison.

candu 12y ago
> Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. I'd say that's a difficult assertion to prove in a system that provides every incentive for recidivism. In addition, how would you (or anyone else) fairly evaluate who falls into this category?
- tormeh 12y ago
  A brainscan for psychopathy would be a first step. Honestly, I would outsource that to psychologists.
  - baddox 12y ago
    As far as I know, there is no "brainscan for psycopathy." Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners.
    - lutusp 12y ago
      > Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners. Or anyone else, for that matter. Tom Widiger, who served as head of research for DSM-IV, says "There are lots of studies which show that clinicians diagnose most of their patients with one particular disorder and really don't systematically assess for other disorders. They have a bias in reference to the disorder that they are especially interested in treating and believe that most of their patients have." The reason should be obvious -- unlike medicine, psychological diagnoses rely on assessing symptoms, not the detection and treatment of causes. Psychiatrists and psychologists who serve on parole boards have a record no better than chance. When they say that a person is no longer a threat and merits release, based on their accuracy and predictive track record, they might as well flip a coin.

hawleyal 12y ago

What would happen if there was not a prison system at all?