12 ms·
Race and Attraction, 2009 – 2014
- Mikeb85 12y agoI think one factor they forgot to add is culture. When you're firmly entrenched in a specific cultural background, often it can be difficult to relate to someone who grew up in a different culture. That being said, I'm white, married to a Caribbean woman (who herself is mixed though very dark skinned). Her family still drives me insane though. To say there are cultural differences would be a major understatement... And things I consider normal behaviour are often perplexing to them as well.
- someotheridiot 12y agoI'm white and married to a Vietnamese. The different culture in her family is a big attraction to me, so much more interesting than boring same old.
- e40 12y agoSame here. Like you, the initial attraction was the difference, but after a good while, the differences have become much more annoying.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- beachstartup 12y agonothing really shocking here, except that asian women rating asian men jumped from +10% to +25% in the last 5 years. this is somewhat surprising as it puts them at the same level that white women rate white men. (drag the slider all the way to the right). in other words, at least on okcupid, asian women rate white men and asian men with roughly the same bias. that's a big swing in less than 10 years. come to think of it, i haven't heard the familiar "i don't date asian guys" come from an asian girl in a very long time, possibly years.
- nkozyra 12y agoExcept in the opposite direction. OK Cupid's white women's affinity for white men has decreased 6% since 2010; their female Asian customers' affinity for Asian men has increased 17%. I suspect there are some serious issues with sample size in those early years.
- presty 12y agoI wonder how much of this is caused by OkCupid growing in Asia. The study does not seem to be specific to the US...
- beachstartup 12y agothat's a good point - curious as to what could possibly explain the drop in white/white ratings though.
- ohquu 12y agoThere was a lot of reassurance that people "not wanting to date [race]" are not racist. Can someone explain to me where the line for racism lies?
- nkozyra 12y agoFor one, I don't think preference has any bearing on this. By most accepted definitions, racism is the belief that one or more race is inherently better or worse in some regard. So, unless you say "white women are inherently better at attracting me on dating sites" I'm not sure how it could be shoehorned into racism.
- ohquu 12y agoRight. But when you say > racism is the belief that one or more race is inherently better or worse in some regard does this mean that a belief is only racist if it is one that has been consciously considered? What about unconscious/subconscious thought (e.g., preference)? It seems difficult to completely reconcile human instinct with true egalitarianism.
- A_COMPUTER 12y agoMany people say yes it is racist: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/04/okcupid_and_race_is_it_racist_to_date_only_people_of_your_own_race.html http://www.racialicious.com/2009/10/09/of-okcupid-and-denials-of-racism/ http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/racial-preferences-are-racist/ http://www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2013-11-if-you-wont-date-people-of-a-certain-race-youre-raci In some cases it is only yes if you are white.
- colmvp 12y agoRegarding that Slate article: > In a somewhat similar vein, one of OkCupid’s questions reads as follows: “Would you strongly prefer to go out with someone of your own skin color/racial background?” I was struck by the not inconsiderable number of people who answered “yes”—including some people I know “in real life,” many of whom are hilariously self-righteous about their enlightened political views. I don't see why that's surprising. Marriage stats in the U.S. still show that people (even minorities) generally marry those of the same race. Is it really surprising that people have a higher preference to connect with those with a similar culture and appearance?
- colmvp 12y agoYup, that's why it majorly sucks balls to be an Asian man in online dating.
- viiralvx 12y agoHey, black men don't have it easy either.
- aaron-lebo 12y agoHey, short and average-looking white guys don't have it easy either. It sounds like only tall and attractive white men have it easy.
- jrs99 12y agoonline dating is hard for everyone. you just will never know if it will work or not. All you really have are your stereotypes.
- jrs99 12y agowhite guy here. over 7 feet tall. Not having an easy time.
- Byzantine 12y agoExtreme height can also be severely limiting to a man such as yourself, so just look for a 6 foot tall White woman.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago"just look for a 6 foot tall White woman" Those are likely in great demand and thus spoiled by attention. I've also noticed that a lot of tall women end up with average height men.
- eru 12y agoAm I the only one who's short (and white) and has it way too easy?
- jiggy2011 12y agoDoes this control for factors like age? For example perhaps people of some races/cultures are more likely to marry early (perhaps because of religion etc) so the people who end up using dating sites from that race are more likely to be divorcees (so older) or the sort who were passed over in real life.
- ll123 12y agoBlack men are the least racist people.
- barsonme 12y agoHow does not having an attraction to somebody make them racist?
- Crito 12y agoI wonder if not being bisexual makes somebody sexist.
- steve_taylor 12y agoIf you are not attracted to someone because of their race, then you are racist.
- enraged_camel 12y agoSexual attraction is not a logical choice. People become attracted to someone first (or not) and rationalize it after the fact. No one goes, "she's black, therefore I'm choosing to not have a boner."
- steve_taylor 12y agoI agree that sexual attraction is not a logical choice. If you tend not to be attracted to black women, that doesn't mean you're necessarily racist. It could just mean that, statistically, you have had a tendency to not be attracted to black women, and that can be for a variety of reasons, such as lack of black women in your vicinity. However, a lot of people, while not considering themselves racist in general, do in fact automatically rule out being attracted to people of specific races. In other cases, they have a fetish for a particular race. In both cases, that is in fact racist, because a conscious choice has been made on the basis of race. People's conscious choices can, to a degree, influence their tastes.
- 12y ago
- wslh 12y agoIt reminds me of this paper (look at the chart in page 2): "Cultural Biases in Economic Exchange?" http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cultural_biases.pdf http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cul...
- r0h1n 12y agoI'm amazed to note that black women face negative scores from men of all races, including their own! That sounds really disturbing, at least to a non-American.
- colmvp 12y agoAsian men and Black women are similar in that they aren't married out to other races at the same rate as their gender opposites. Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/02/sdt-2012-rise-of-intermarriage-06.png http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/02/sdt-2012-rise-o... http://imgur.com/V9w2k5m http://imgur.com/V9w2k5m
- w1ntermute 12y agoThat's because Asians are perceived as feminine, while blacks are seen as masculine. Feminine men and masculine women aren't as attractive as masculine men and feminine women.
- electronous 12y agoWhat a wonderfully disgusting comment.
- guard-of-terra 12y agoI wonder why Black women aren't married out. I would expect the opposite to be true (Black men not in demand, black women with more options)
- dragonwriter 12y ago> I wonder why Black women aren't married out. There is in much of Black American culture a significant taboo against Black women marrying (or dating) "out", which I think is significantly influenced by a very long history of black women being viewed as acceptable for casual use, but not marriage, by white men, and the resulting accumulated history of experiences with "dating out". (There are other cultural factors that feed into this, as well.)
- ignostic 12y agoI wonder what this would look like adjusted for income. The same author wrote about how much income matters in online dating, especially when over 23 and making less than 100k.[1]. Other studies have shown that income is unequal by race, especially for high-paying jobs. (Unfortunately I'm struggling to find a source showing distribution rather than average, which is also lower[2].) It'd also be interesting to see adjustments for height. I'd also think (see [1]) that that's where Asian men get lower response rates. [1] http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-dating/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online... [2] http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html
- colmvp 12y agoUnfortunately, not exactly what you're looking for, but here is the median combined income for various couples (both interracial and same): http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/02/sdt-2012-rise-of-intermarriage-14.png http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/02/sdt-2012-rise-o...
- bambax 12y agoWonder about this too. "Race" is a proxy for social class. I think (but don't know) that people would have less problems dating other people from another race who are of the same social class as themselves or above, than they would date people of the same race but from a lower social class.
- Byzantine 12y ago>"Race" is a proxy for social class. You mean, "social class" is a politically correct term used to explain the general differences between races. Asian men tend to do very well in school and careers and typically have a higher than average income, yet they are considered less attractive than Latinos, who generally perform much lower in school, career, and have a lower income than Asian people.
- mkr-hn 12y agoI've never asked someone I liked what their family income is. Does anyone actually care what a prospective partner's net worth/income is? That seems bizarre.
- russellallen 12y agoGiven that the racial categories used are American (White/Black/Asian/Latino) I'm guessing this is only or mostly American data. In which case it probably should say so. "Race" is a culturally mediated difference and the categories of prejudice in other cultures aren't going to map to this in any universal way. Just a comment from someone not in the US :)
- omonra 12y agoI'm actually curious if there are greater cultural differences between Americans of different races (say black-white) than between Europeans from different countries but same class.
- javert 12y agoAs an American who has a decent amount of interaction with Europeans: It's much easier to interact with Europeans of similar class to me than it is local people across class boundaries. This is anecdotal, but as a knowledge worker and an atheist living in the American south, it just feels like there is often an "unbridgable gap" with less well-educated folk around here. Which speaks to the fact that America is culturally balkanized. I mean, yes, "nigger" was a very popular search term right when Obama was elected... that's because there's a small, distinct group of Americans, say 5%, that are very ignorant racists.
- learc83 12y ago>Which speaks to the fact that America is culturally balkanized. If you think Europe isn't "culturally balkanized" ask the next European you meet what they think about "Gypsies", and "Travellers ". Europe has plenty of their own class/cultural issues--they just happen just a bit different than America's.
- javert 12y agoI would expect it to be culturally balkanized. Didn't say otherwise. Just sharing my experiences. Seemed to be what someone was asking about.
- notastartup 12y ago10~25% boost for Asian males. You can thank Kpop for that boost. It's quite amazing what popular media catering to the female demographic can create a totally different image of the Asian male, unlike the American perspective which tends to degrade and emasculate Asian males through stereotypes. Even positive stereotypes are ridiculed (Good at math, plays classical piano). In my experience, I had more positive experience with young non-Asian women (around 18~22) and don't think I ended up dating anyone around my age or older (unfortunately :D). It's funny that most of my Asian friends also lie about being Korean when they are not. Even more insane is that they are able to get Asian women by getting past the filter which seems to favor Korean men. Thank you Korean popular culture machine! Thank you Kpop!
- baby 12y agoAs an Asian living in France I've always blamed it on the media. You will never see an asian man in a movie, and if you see one it's a ridiculous stereotype just here to make fun of asian people. You're 100% correct when you're talking about kpop boosting our numbers. Japanese culture is a big deal as well.
- notastartup 12y agoHow do you find the dating scene in France as an Asian male?
- baby 12y agoHarder than in China for sure. But I'm not really complaining since I'm a mix. I'm sure full asian have it harder.
- codygman 12y agoThere was recently a kpop (iirc) video featuring all black women... maybe they are next!
- notastartup 12y ago
- azakai 12y ago> While OkCupid is large enough that its demographics reflect the general Internet-using public Statistically, speaking, that is false. Unless the OKC user base is over half the size of the Internet-using public, which I doubt. Any number less than that does not guarantee it is representative (but it might be weak support for it being so).
- bittercynic 12y agoMany of the comments here focus on whether or not an individual's preferences are racist or not, but generally an individual being racist isn't going to cause anyone much trouble (except for extreme or violent cases.) The major issue this illuminates is that the aggregate preferences of many people confer an advantage to some and disadvantage to others based on race. The value in having this highlighted so clearly is that some (many) people think that racism is dead, and this gives us something to point to when we ask them to reconsider that opinion.
- Byzantine 12y agoThe problem with today's liberal attitudes is that such attitudes wrongheadedly assume that racism = violence, when in reality, racism usually just means separatism, which if anything, decreases violence, as good fences make good neighbors.
- smtddr 12y agoThe problem comes when your so-called "separatism" causes me not to get a job, or an apartment, or a promotion, or when you donate money to a campaign to ban interracial marriages. If you can keep it in your own home then that's fine. But that's probably impossible due to human nature. You can't privately dislike a group of people and not have it manifest when you interact with the rest of society. Especially if you're in a position of power/authority.
- roguecoder 12y agoRacism is violence. It is theft of wages and wealth. It is unjustified cruelty. It is justification and rationalization of literal murders. It hurts ever single person so targeted and attempting to justify that is part of that same dynamic. Racism includes believing that your freedom from diversity is more important than other people's lives.
- powertower 12y agoPersonal preference, bias, prejudice, and common-sense (e.g., awareness of danger), are not the same thing, nor are interchangeable with systemic racism, nor hysterical racism. Also, a person's life being more important than others is a basic product of consciousness. > Racism includes believing that your freedom from diversity is more important than other people's lives. So why haven't the liberals that promote the mentioned point-of-view moved from their 96.7% white communities into more diverse areas?
- Byzantine 12y agoSo basically, this data confirms what everybody sees in reality: that white people are considered the most beautiful by every other race; even to the point that adding "whiteness" to your racial profile will increase interest in your overall profile. That's why in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia; the most successful, attractive people shown in the media have White features or are very light skinned. Now, here's a better question about this data: would this study be considered "racist" if Black or Asian people were considered the most attractive? I'm guessing no. "Anti-racism" is just another way to say "anti-white".
- pessimizer 12y agoYou got a zero from black women. edit: I'm sorry - you got a zero in 2009. Now it's a -12%, twice the second lowest percentage.
- trustfundbaby 12y agoYup ... this one is particularly interesting/weird. Black women carry this behavior over to black men they perceive as "white" ... (interests, speech that sort of thing). As a black man it really is kind of perplexing.
- smtddr 12y ago>>this data confirms what everybody sees in reality What it confirms is.... http://thehairpin.com/2014/09/white-beauty-myth http://thehairpin.com/2014/09/white-beauty-myth
- pessimizer 12y agoAs a black man, I'm proud to be the most egalitarian in romance. It really boils down to whoever smiles at me and tells me I'm smart.
- Byzantine 12y agoSo basically, you accept just about anybody, because you have either low standards or just want to be with as many woman as you can. Not exactly classy, bro.
- dang 12y agoPersonal attacks are not allowed on Hacker News.
- e40 12y agoThis is what is called "projection." You definitely have issues and they were triggered by the GP post. Seek help.
- sanoli 12y agoI think the " whoever smiles at me and tells me I'm smart" was the sarcastic bit. What he was saying was he was open to other races, that's all.
- pessimizer 12y agoThanks, bro. You must think I live in a world of smiles and compliments. If only.
- mkr-hn 12y agoClassist and heterosexist. You're a real catch.
- hangonhn 12y agoMy guess is that being as open to love as you are probably leads to better outcomes in romance. Attitude matters more than race.
- gadders 12y ago
- kristopolous 12y agoI really wish their analysis went beyond just heterosexual pairings. Firstly because those who haven't dated outside their own gender like me can't really comprehend the significance of this and secondly because same-gender dating dynamics are profoundly different than their different-gender counterparts.
- blueflow 12y agoIs making a choice based of race inherently racism? And is racism inherently bad? As someone who is new to this world i felt like things like race and racism don't matter if you are a nice person and caring about what others feel.
- boomlinde 12y agoChoosing a mate seems discriminatory by nature. What racism is is a matter of definition, and as for whether it's good or bad, I firmly believe that there isn't anything inherent about whatever answer you come up with. That said, I think people usually mean racial prejudice and it being applied in ways that hurt people or cause injustice when they say "racism". Personally I think those things are bad.
- roguecoder 12y ago"Things like testing and bugs don't matter as long as you are a good programmer and care about code quality." Emergent social dynamics still have a very real effect on people's lives, even if no one intended to do anything wrong.
- blueflow 12y agoI thought its like that a programmer knows that he makes mistakes, and therefore takes actions to reduce the amount of mistakes. Isn't "code quality" and the nature of human implying this? I would expect people to know the consequence of what they are doing. Am i wrong?
- tomp 12y agoDe gustibus non est disputandum. It's Latin for "taste is not to be discussed" - meaning that just because we like different things does not mean that our choices are bad. In fact, attraction/taste is most often not even a choice! So, for example, just because I'm attracted to women (and not attracted to men), it doesn't mean I'm sexist. Likewise, just because someone isn't attracted to black/asian/redhead men/women, doesn't mean they are discriminating. On the other hand, if you're making choices that are based on race (i.e. not trusting someone who is black - apparently police in the US is quite prone to that), it's either discrimination or racism. Sometimes, discrimination helps us survive (that big dangerous-looking man coming your way? better run), but very often, it's based on irrelevant things (black man driving an expensive car? must be a drug dealer!!), or even institutionalized (women can't own property). I'd say that's inherently bad. Edit: I personally consider any institutionalized discrimination bad and immoral. Grants for black students are bad, IMO. On the other hand, grants for poor students (the majority of which will be black (in the US), but not all of them) are good.
- thejdude 12y agoAs a European I'm surprised by the very stark black-white separation in US culture. Why do the two (almost) not mix, even after centuries? During my student year in the US, I was friends with students of all colors - culturally they were really the same. So what is it? Peer pressure? Most young black women I see (over here) are incredibly beautiful, but then in my country they're mostly fresh immigrants - the cultural difference would be much stronger than a couple of White and Black Americans. From watching TV my impressions are that there's especially a taboo for white guys to date black women, and the prejudice that "vanilla" just isn't cool. Can anyone enlighten me?
- cyphunk 12y agoAs an American living in Europe I'm surprised you could think that black-white separation in the US is so stark in comparison to Europe. Racism always felt like a European invention to me that the US just executes very well because it's a country founded by a bunch of European rejects. By in large though latent racism seems to be much stronger in the EU. They just aren't as expressive about it because... 1. most EU cities are not diverse enough to warrant much thought on the topic or even present an opportunity for division. 2. Europeans "respect" authority or their place more so the racists keep their mouth shut. But when they do open their mouth, oh my > From watching TV my impressions are that there's especially a taboo for white guys to date black women, and the prejudice that "vanilla" just isn't cool. Can anyone enlighten me? For a European, or Northern European, black falls under exotic because it is something so rare. Look at how your countrymen react to turkish, roma or other migrant races of the EU and then you'll hopefully shed a bit of the elitism.
- thejdude 12y agoWell, we don't have that many black people, but every day on the train I see, and where I live, I'm surrounded by lots of Turkish people, Polish, Russians, a few blacks (I think the family a few houses down is of French origin), Spanish, Italians, lots of south/eastern Europeans whose language I can't identify... Most seem to be hard-working families, or working/school youth, and generally seem more or less well-integrated. Of course on average they are less educated than the natives, there is more crime among them, but the same is true for natives from a poor/worker's origin compared to academics. I've seen a few Roma (or whatever they are; looked like my stereotype of Roma) whose "job" it is to ride downtown and beg for money all day. I suppose (and hope) there are also more integrated ones among them. Overall, sure there are also prejudices or racism, but the same is true in America regarding Mexican immigrants. As to elitism - I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yes, I'm a white, educated, good-looking guy; I'm lucky. Doesn't mean I think less of people from other backgrounds - on the contrary I respect them a lot if they don't just collect welfare.
- cyphunk 12y agoRead, researched and took a break. The first impression of this being something quiet interesting and perhaps revealing obscure questions... faded into the impression that this is statistician hogwash. Q: All this data is from a dating site. What does that have to do with my life? There are many situations that might not be explicitly romantic, but are nonetheless a lot like a first date. A job interview. Trying to rent an apartment. When you meet your freshman roommates. Anytime you’re trying to make an impression on a stranger. Be careful about turning this data from a dating site into another form of craniology. What biases people utilise for sexual and/or life-partner preferences cannot and should not be interchanged with biases exhibited in interviews or the examples given. I'm sure there is overlap but one thing his data shows is that the sway of sexual preference is volatile enough over short spans of time that a huge margin of error should be assumed for any other forms of generalisation. Your time would be better spent figuring out what hollywood star of what race popularity peaked to create a sway in volatility, than to take this data too seriously. Anyway, the guy has to sell books i guess.