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Children have always been expensive, haven't they? But I think that's more of a cultural issue - people prefer consumption to investing in raising kids. And wo

Children have always been expensive, haven't they? But I think that's more of a cultural issue - people prefer consumption to investing in raising kids. And working children don't usually bring in lots of money, but back in the day they would care for their elderly parents, which was a good reason to have kids. I think it's not mainly about money (why do Germany's academics have the fewest children?), but about creating a children-friendly climate and a culture where raising children is considered a good thing and not just a burden that keeps you from consuming. Children and modern consumer culture - bad fit.

rmrfrmrf 12y ago
> I think it's not mainly about money (why do Germany's academics have the fewest children?), but about creating a children-friendly climate and a culture where raising children is considered a good thing and not just a burden that keeps you from consuming. This is so interesting; I was thinking about this exact problem (consumerism vs. child rearing) the other day after noticing some anti-child undertones on Reddit. Some themes I saw were workplace discrimination toward women in their 20's ("Why should I have to pay to train a female employee when she's highly likely to get pregnant and leave? I'd rather just hire a male."), shaming parents experiencing financial hardship ("It doesn't matter if you got cancer; you should have accumulated more savings before deciding to have kids!"), and an overall positive view of a child-free lifestyle ("All of our friends with kids are poor now -- I'm happy without kids so I can buy whatever games and gadgets I want."). I just find it weird that people can forego such a defining element of any life form (reproduction) for the sake of consuming more "things". To take it to the extreme, could consumerism lead to the end of the human race?
- thejdude 12y ago
  Well, on one point I do agree: you should have your life/finances sorted out (meaning: positive cash flow, enough to raise kids) before you have kids. Everything else is just irresponsible. Generally, it's a personal decision. However, consumer people might well remove themselves from the gene pool this way. The problem is that their culture is everywhere, and all kids catch that virus in school ("mom/dad, Timmy has a PS4, when do we get one?", "I also need to collect all Pokemon, or I'm not cool.") and want to grow up to be models/popstars/celebs or other meaningless things. Here's hoping my (future) kids will grow out of that phase quickly.
cyphunk 12y ago
> I think it's not mainly about money (why do Germany's academics have the fewest children?), but about creating a children-friendly climate and a culture where raising children is considered a good thing and not just a burden that keeps you from consuming. Children and modern consumer culture - bad fit. The cost to give birth is multiple times lower than somewhere like the US, the cost to raise again multiple times lower than the US, children are given much greater independence (freedom of movement and choice comes much earlier). Granted somewhere such as the US with an increasing rather than decreasing population, has little incentive to create a child-friendly climate. In Germany however this problem has made it very child friendly. Second, the comment on "consumption" is a critique that may apply to humanity as a whole but largely German is very low in the list of OECD countries when it comes to economies based on consumption.
- thejdude 12y ago
  While most of US population growth is AFAIK due to immigration, and traditional WASP families have a rather low growth these days, that used to be different, due to cultural differences. Germany has been low pop-growth for a long time now (also excluding some immigrants). Still, I think consumer culture is what's keeping growth low, in most industrialized countries these days. (I may be wrong.) I'm not sure how high or low Germany's consumption level is in absolute numbers, but I think it might look low because the country is producing/exporting so damn much.
  - cyphunk 12y ago
    the idea of consumption as a stint to growth i could relate to from the perspective of: cultures more consumed with self give less reason for growth. From another perspective: in a society that worships the self child-bearing is a product of boredom or issues with self-confidence? But it just doesn't fit entirely.

rmrfrmrf 12y ago

> I think it's not mainly about money (why do Germany's academics have the fewest children?), but about creating a children-friendly climate and a culture where raising children is considered a good thing and not just a burden that keeps you from consuming. This is so interesting; I was thinking about this exact problem (consumerism vs. child rearing) the other day after noticing some anti-child undertones on Reddit. Some themes I saw were workplace discrimination toward women in their 20's ("Why should I have to pay to train a female employee when she's highly likely to get pregnant and leave? I'd rather just hire a male."), shaming parents experiencing financial hardship ("It doesn't matter if you got cancer; you should have accumulated more savings before deciding to have kids!"), and an overall positive view of a child-free lifestyle ("All of our friends with kids are poor now -- I'm happy without kids so I can buy whatever games and gadgets I want."). I just find it weird that people can forego such a defining element of any life form (reproduction) for the sake of consuming more "things". To take it to the extreme, could consumerism lead to the end of the human race?

thejdude 12y ago
Well, on one point I do agree: you should have your life/finances sorted out (meaning: positive cash flow, enough to raise kids) before you have kids. Everything else is just irresponsible. Generally, it's a personal decision. However, consumer people might well remove themselves from the gene pool this way. The problem is that their culture is everywhere, and all kids catch that virus in school ("mom/dad, Timmy has a PS4, when do we get one?", "I also need to collect all Pokemon, or I'm not cool.") and want to grow up to be models/popstars/celebs or other meaningless things. Here's hoping my (future) kids will grow out of that phase quickly.

cyphunk 12y ago

> I think it's not mainly about money (why do Germany's academics have the fewest children?), but about creating a children-friendly climate and a culture where raising children is considered a good thing and not just a burden that keeps you from consuming. Children and modern consumer culture - bad fit. The cost to give birth is multiple times lower than somewhere like the US, the cost to raise again multiple times lower than the US, children are given much greater independence (freedom of movement and choice comes much earlier). Granted somewhere such as the US with an increasing rather than decreasing population, has little incentive to create a child-friendly climate. In Germany however this problem has made it very child friendly. Second, the comment on "consumption" is a critique that may apply to humanity as a whole but largely German is very low in the list of OECD countries when it comes to economies based on consumption.

thejdude 12y ago
While most of US population growth is AFAIK due to immigration, and traditional WASP families have a rather low growth these days, that used to be different, due to cultural differences. Germany has been low pop-growth for a long time now (also excluding some immigrants). Still, I think consumer culture is what's keeping growth low, in most industrialized countries these days. (I may be wrong.) I'm not sure how high or low Germany's consumption level is in absolute numbers, but I think it might look low because the country is producing/exporting so damn much.
- cyphunk 12y ago
  the idea of consumption as a stint to growth i could relate to from the perspective of: cultures more consumed with self give less reason for growth. From another perspective: in a society that worships the self child-bearing is a product of boredom or issues with self-confidence? But it just doesn't fit entirely.