3 ms·

You're correct, but that's not the point. Some device drivers run in userspace, even the Linux kernel itself can run in userspace!

by e7620 12y ago

icebraining 12y ago
How is it not the point? You said "we can't even build a distro anymore without downloading systemd," due to the implication that udev was embedded in the kernel, but that's not true. You can build a distro - just don't use udev.
- e7620 12y ago
  udev is a necessary component of Linux. You could say just use a fork like eudev. Fine (for the time being). But the thing is, you can't remove udev from the Linux kernel if you want to keep it calling Linux, as it'd be a fork.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    udev is a necessary component of Linux. Why do you say that? That's what I don't understand. As far as I know, that's not true. You can run a Linux system without the udev daemon, or with one written by you. But the thing is, you can't remove udev from the Linux kernel if you want to keep it calling Linux, as it'd be a fork. But udev isn't in the Linux kernel! How can I remove it from there?!
    - e7620 12y ago
      > You can run a Linux system without the udev daemon, or with one written by you. A GNU/Linux system consists of several components. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html shows some examples. If you remove udev from Linux, I see at least two problems. One of them is technical: programmers expect Linux to have udev, because that's what the Linux authors advertise. The other is legal: Linux is a trademark, and if you replace something and introduce some incompatibility, it's a bad idea to keep calling it Linux. > But udev isn't in the Linux kernel! How can I remove it from there?! I think here lies the misunderstanding, udev was previously in the kernel repository, now it isn't. Fair enough. But consider that GNU is also separated in a different repository, but it still comprises the GNU/Linux system as a whole. Imagine we could only download GCC (necessary to compile Linux) as part of Adobe Flash, don't you think I could say the same? That "we can't even build a distro anymore without downloading Adobe Flash"?
      - icebraining 12y ago
        But consider that GNU is also separated in a different repository, but it still comprises the GNU/Linux system as a whole. Yes, and udev would compose an hypothetical "Udev/Linux system". But Linux itself doesn't need udev. GNU / GCC is different because you literally can't compile Linux without it. But if and when LLVMLinux succeeds, I don't think you could say the same.
        e7620 12y ago
        > But Linux itself doesn't need udev. Would it really work? I think you'd have to rewrite some parts of the kernel, but I may be wrong now, in the past or the future. Anyways, we're arguing semantics here, it'd be better for all to separate udev from systemd. It's like Windows installers usually bundling the program with some crap, and I know most people don't appreciate that.

You're correct, but that's not the point. Some device drivers run in userspace, even the Linux kernel itself can run in userspace!

by e7620 12y ago

You're correct, but that's not the point. Some device drivers run in userspace, even the Linux kernel itself can run in userspace!

icebraining 12y ago

How is it not the point? You said "we can't even build a distro anymore without downloading systemd," due to the implication that udev was embedded in the kernel, but that's not true. You can build a distro - just don't use udev.

e7620 12y ago
udev is a necessary component of Linux. You could say just use a fork like eudev. Fine (for the time being). But the thing is, you can't remove udev from the Linux kernel if you want to keep it calling Linux, as it'd be a fork.
- icebraining 12y ago
  udev is a necessary component of Linux. Why do you say that? That's what I don't understand. As far as I know, that's not true. You can run a Linux system without the udev daemon, or with one written by you. But the thing is, you can't remove udev from the Linux kernel if you want to keep it calling Linux, as it'd be a fork. But udev isn't in the Linux kernel! How can I remove it from there?!
  - e7620 12y ago
    > You can run a Linux system without the udev daemon, or with one written by you. A GNU/Linux system consists of several components. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html shows some examples. If you remove udev from Linux, I see at least two problems. One of them is technical: programmers expect Linux to have udev, because that's what the Linux authors advertise. The other is legal: Linux is a trademark, and if you replace something and introduce some incompatibility, it's a bad idea to keep calling it Linux. > But udev isn't in the Linux kernel! How can I remove it from there?! I think here lies the misunderstanding, udev was previously in the kernel repository, now it isn't. Fair enough. But consider that GNU is also separated in a different repository, but it still comprises the GNU/Linux system as a whole. Imagine we could only download GCC (necessary to compile Linux) as part of Adobe Flash, don't you think I could say the same? That "we can't even build a distro anymore without downloading Adobe Flash"?
    - icebraining 12y ago
      But consider that GNU is also separated in a different repository, but it still comprises the GNU/Linux system as a whole. Yes, and udev would compose an hypothetical "Udev/Linux system". But Linux itself doesn't need udev. GNU / GCC is different because you literally can't compile Linux without it. But if and when LLVMLinux succeeds, I don't think you could say the same.
      - e7620 12y ago
        > But Linux itself doesn't need udev. Would it really work? I think you'd have to rewrite some parts of the kernel, but I may be wrong now, in the past or the future. Anyways, we're arguing semantics here, it'd be better for all to separate udev from systemd. It's like Windows installers usually bundling the program with some crap, and I know most people don't appreciate that.