6 ms·

Reddit is a failed state

21 points by kanamekun 12y ago

FatalLogic 12y ago
Reddit's true corporate philosophy looks simple. These appear to be the 2 immutable laws of Reddit, and everything else follows naturally from them: 1. Anything goes 2. Unless it causes immediate and obvious harm to Reddit I think the mission statements from Reddit's CEO are a torturous attempt to construct a grand community vision that embodies these laws. He might say it's the other way around, and the laws grew out of the vision, but I think these laws are shaped mainly by the economic and business realities of managing a huge community on an understaffed shoestring.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  They might end up finding out that they violated '2'. The collective ability of the celebrities involved to sue reddit into the ground should not be under-estimated. And it is a pity that that is what would set limits on abuses like this, such limits ought to be set based on what every idiot could see was unauthorized publication of very private information, rather than that the financial capabilities of the victims would make the difference.
  - broodbucket 12y ago
    I'm not so sure about this. Reddit doesn't host media. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think "some people who use their site posted a link to another website, which has the illegal media" would cause significant damage to Reddit.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      That's roughly the situation the pirate bay is in.
    - RubyPinch 12y ago
      when it comes to damage-legal-teams-can-cause, I'm always reminded of Sony vs That-guy-who-cracked-ps3-stuff. apparently they kept calling him at all hours of the night, of course he had to listen to each call. if he let 1 valid call go unresponded, then that would be a mark against him. regardless, the reasons were detailed here: http://redd.it/2fpdax http://redd.it/2fpdax, it was a multitude of issues and it even surprised some reddit admins
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Reddit hosts thumbnails. Edit: and legally that puts them in some risk.
jacquesm 12y ago
Reddit comes of smelling less than rosy in this episode. It seems as if it is ok to post the most intimate details about people as long as they are not reddit users, then suddenly privacy is really important. Link-dumps and fora in general could do a lot more to protect the privacy of victims, there are whole websites dedicated to doing harm to others, usually people who had absolutely no idea that the innocent picture they took or allowed to be taken would end up online some day to ruin their lives or cause them at a minimum great distress. I've been battling this problem for years, and even 'consenting adults' can get themselves into a ton of trouble if they do not oversee all the possible consequences of their actions. It's the main reason why I've decided to ban all forms of nudity on my website, even though I personally believe that people should be able to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes, and by extension their own homes on the net the amount of grief that can come of it nullifies any positive effects. Reddit could and should do more to stop abuses like these and hiding behind the 'free speech' banner when clearly the images distributed were distributed without the consent and probably even the knowledge of the subjects of the images is cheap and tone-deaf. Which is a pity because reddit is one of very few sites on the net that has very long term potential.
adamnemecek 12y ago
I know I'm repeating what's said every time people complain about the state of things on Reddit but if you unsubscribe from the defaults and pick smaller subreddits that really interest you, Reddit is amazing. As in my life would be noticeably different without it.
- danudey 12y ago
  I agree with this point, in that reddit is a community of communities. The problem is that some of those communities are dedicated towards causing active harm to people, and Reddit (the corporation) has an attitude of 'it's not our problem, so we don't care what they do'. Unfortunately, if that draws legal teams to bear on Reddit, that could be bad for everyone. And as much as I love the few communities I'm a member of, I honestly hope it does. I would rather have reddit shut down than have it become a haven for this sort of depraved, childish, entitled, antisocial bullshit.
SixSigma 12y ago
Another wonderful misconception. Reddit doesn't host the images. It is as culpable as Google.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Google does not host a forum dedicated to spreading nude pictures of celebrities. If and when google spreads images like that it is because of automated collection of images, not because of some intent on behalf of a google registered user to harass private individuals. There is a huge difference there and if Reddit turns out to have liability I wouldn't be too surprised. In that sense they are no better than camcap forums.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > Google does not host a forum dedicated to spreading nude pictures of celebrities. Sure there's no Google Group (not just a Usenet group) dedicated to hosting such images? Or a Blogger site that does similar?
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      If they do exist I suspect it is right up until someone notices or a take-down request is received. I highly doubt that google would knowingly host such a forum.
  - SixSigma 12y ago
    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/celebrity$20nudes https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/celebrity$20nudes
- DanBC 12y ago
  Reddit hosts thumbnails. Reddit is culpable.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Why are Google image search thumbnails any different?
IvyMike 12y ago
There are a lot of assholes on the internet, but in general I'm unwilling to hastily put limits on freedom of speech, even when those assholes use it to be assholes. I am not sure what people are asking for: Do they want reddit to start censoring more stuff? That can quickly become a slippery slope. Do they want reddit to break DMCA laws? That's not going to happen. Do they want reddit to fall on its sword and censor nothing even if it means the demonization of reddit? Probably a bad idea too. On another note, I mostly use reddit to read /r/cpp, /r/netsec, /r/Iceland, /r/hiphopheads, /r/bourbon (and friends), /r/LosAngeles, and a collection of other interest specific subreddits. I barely noticed the recent shenanigans. When an article attempts to paint reddit as "being filled with [insert broad brush here]" I always cringe; any large site cuts across most demographics. It's filled with the same type of people who use the internet; that is, the same that are walking around in your city right now. It's filled with everyone.
- B-Con 12y ago
  Niche subreddits can actually be fantastic. I'm subscribed to many related to my personal hobbies and interests, and in general the content and conduct is reasonable. In contrast, most of the mainstream ones that are worth avoiding, with the exception of /r/askscience.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Your freedom of speech is not a right on private websites and a site like Reddit could easily have curbed this thread without any damage to anybody's feelings and a significant reduction in the potential harm to the victims of these hacks. Imagine a HN thread about how and where you can download pirated copies of software you wrote or something similar. Do you feel that shutting that down would inhibit your freedom of speech somehow?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - RubyPinch 12y ago
    @ free speech in relation to reddit > We uphold the ideal of free speech on reddit as much as possible not because we are legally bound to, but because we believe that you - the user - has the right to choose between right and wrong, good and evil, and that it is your responsibility to do so. When you know something is right, you should choose to do it. But as much as possible, we will not force you to do it. from the recent blog-post: http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-for-his-own.html http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-f...
noname123 12y ago
Tbh, I found the Washington Post profile of the moderator of /r/TheFappening to be even more fascinating. johnmcjohn frequented asexuality and Asperger forums and voiced his frustration, and detailed his financial troubles and professional failures on LinkedIn and begged for money from strangers on Reddit and also moderated and advised users on /r/cocaine on how to obtain and use cocaine. "It's odd that a man with self-diagnosed asexuality created a forum as a trove of naked celebrity photos." The degree of detail of personal information that we post online if someone resourceful enough like a reporter at WashPo can gather on ourselves, both our public or pseudo-anonymous personas truly reveal everything about our professional, psychological, financial and personal lives. Recently, two events happened to me where I was confronted with IRL with what I said online which I thought was anonymous. I felt really uncomfortable initially because I felt simultaneously really rude to the people who have read my comments because it was my pure unadulterated thoughts without any real life filter; and exposed because there are honest thoughts of mine like stream-of-conscious thoughts that I'd never express in public to communicate to someone else, kind of like Jimmy Carter who answered "Yes, in my thoughts" to the question of "Have you ever cheated on your wife." Going back to the main topic of discussion, if I was exposed to the core by WashPo, I'd be no better johnmcjohn. But like johnmcjohn who made his profile public again on Twitter because "there is nothing to hide," I feel honesty in all shapes of forms, even if it exposes you as a 33-year old guy with a questionable personal/professional background who shares celeb nudies is the way to go. I post a lot of provocative comments on this forum; the first few times, it was because I felt arrogant or wanted to attack some of the people-types whom I disliked in real life online. But after someone replied to one of my comment and gave a good counter-perspective and made me learn new things and new perspective. It made me not afraid to be downvoted and keep being honest. I hope that more confrontations and humiliations come my way, so that I can learn from them.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > thoughts that I'd never express in public to communicate to someone else But you did! That's sort of the whole point here. So if you do it because you think you are anonymous (as in your identity is divorced from what you say) but it is stuff that you'd never express in public then you have essentially crossed one of your own rules. You shouldn't say/do stuff anonymously that you would not say/do when you're identified.

21 points by kanamekun 12y ago

Reddit's true corporate philosophy looks simple. These appear to be the 2 immutable laws of Reddit, and everything else follows naturally from them: 1. Anything goes 2. Unless it causes immediate and obvious harm to Reddit I think the mission statements from Reddit's CEO are a torturous attempt to construct a grand community vision that embodies these laws. He might say it's the other way around, and the laws grew out of the vision, but I think these laws are shaped mainly by the economic and business realities of managing a huge community on an understaffed shoestring.

jacquesm 12y ago
They might end up finding out that they violated '2'. The collective ability of the celebrities involved to sue reddit into the ground should not be under-estimated. And it is a pity that that is what would set limits on abuses like this, such limits ought to be set based on what every idiot could see was unauthorized publication of very private information, rather than that the financial capabilities of the victims would make the difference.
- broodbucket 12y ago
  I'm not so sure about this. Reddit doesn't host media. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think "some people who use their site posted a link to another website, which has the illegal media" would cause significant damage to Reddit.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    That's roughly the situation the pirate bay is in.
  - RubyPinch 12y ago
    when it comes to damage-legal-teams-can-cause, I'm always reminded of Sony vs That-guy-who-cracked-ps3-stuff. apparently they kept calling him at all hours of the night, of course he had to listen to each call. if he let 1 valid call go unresponded, then that would be a mark against him. regardless, the reasons were detailed here: http://redd.it/2fpdax http://redd.it/2fpdax, it was a multitude of issues and it even surprised some reddit admins
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Reddit hosts thumbnails. Edit: and legally that puts them in some risk.

jacquesm 12y ago

Reddit comes of smelling less than rosy in this episode. It seems as if it is ok to post the most intimate details about people as long as they are not reddit users, then suddenly privacy is really important. Link-dumps and fora in general could do a lot more to protect the privacy of victims, there are whole websites dedicated to doing harm to others, usually people who had absolutely no idea that the innocent picture they took or allowed to be taken would end up online some day to ruin their lives or cause them at a minimum great distress. I've been battling this problem for years, and even 'consenting adults' can get themselves into a ton of trouble if they do not oversee all the possible consequences of their actions. It's the main reason why I've decided to ban all forms of nudity on my website, even though I personally believe that people should be able to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own homes, and by extension their own homes on the net the amount of grief that can come of it nullifies any positive effects. Reddit could and should do more to stop abuses like these and hiding behind the 'free speech' banner when clearly the images distributed were distributed without the consent and probably even the knowledge of the subjects of the images is cheap and tone-deaf. Which is a pity because reddit is one of very few sites on the net that has very long term potential.

adamnemecek 12y ago

I know I'm repeating what's said every time people complain about the state of things on Reddit but if you unsubscribe from the defaults and pick smaller subreddits that really interest you, Reddit is amazing. As in my life would be noticeably different without it.

danudey 12y ago
I agree with this point, in that reddit is a community of communities. The problem is that some of those communities are dedicated towards causing active harm to people, and Reddit (the corporation) has an attitude of 'it's not our problem, so we don't care what they do'. Unfortunately, if that draws legal teams to bear on Reddit, that could be bad for everyone. And as much as I love the few communities I'm a member of, I honestly hope it does. I would rather have reddit shut down than have it become a haven for this sort of depraved, childish, entitled, antisocial bullshit.

SixSigma 12y ago

Another wonderful misconception. Reddit doesn't host the images. It is as culpable as Google.

jacquesm 12y ago
Google does not host a forum dedicated to spreading nude pictures of celebrities. If and when google spreads images like that it is because of automated collection of images, not because of some intent on behalf of a google registered user to harass private individuals. There is a huge difference there and if Reddit turns out to have liability I wouldn't be too surprised. In that sense they are no better than camcap forums.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > Google does not host a forum dedicated to spreading nude pictures of celebrities. Sure there's no Google Group (not just a Usenet group) dedicated to hosting such images? Or a Blogger site that does similar?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    If they do exist I suspect it is right up until someone notices or a take-down request is received. I highly doubt that google would knowingly host such a forum.
- SixSigma 12y ago
  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/celebrity$20nudes https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/celebrity$20nudes
DanBC 12y ago
Reddit hosts thumbnails. Reddit is culpable.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Why are Google image search thumbnails any different?

IvyMike 12y ago

There are a lot of assholes on the internet, but in general I'm unwilling to hastily put limits on freedom of speech, even when those assholes use it to be assholes. I am not sure what people are asking for: Do they want reddit to start censoring more stuff? That can quickly become a slippery slope. Do they want reddit to break DMCA laws? That's not going to happen. Do they want reddit to fall on its sword and censor nothing even if it means the demonization of reddit? Probably a bad idea too. On another note, I mostly use reddit to read /r/cpp, /r/netsec, /r/Iceland, /r/hiphopheads, /r/bourbon (and friends), /r/LosAngeles, and a collection of other interest specific subreddits. I barely noticed the recent shenanigans. When an article attempts to paint reddit as "being filled with [insert broad brush here]" I always cringe; any large site cuts across most demographics. It's filled with the same type of people who use the internet; that is, the same that are walking around in your city right now. It's filled with everyone.

B-Con 12y ago
Niche subreddits can actually be fantastic. I'm subscribed to many related to my personal hobbies and interests, and in general the content and conduct is reasonable. In contrast, most of the mainstream ones that are worth avoiding, with the exception of /r/askscience.
jacquesm 12y ago
Your freedom of speech is not a right on private websites and a site like Reddit could easily have curbed this thread without any damage to anybody's feelings and a significant reduction in the potential harm to the victims of these hacks. Imagine a HN thread about how and where you can download pirated copies of software you wrote or something similar. Do you feel that shutting that down would inhibit your freedom of speech somehow?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- RubyPinch 12y ago
  @ free speech in relation to reddit > We uphold the ideal of free speech on reddit as much as possible not because we are legally bound to, but because we believe that you - the user - has the right to choose between right and wrong, good and evil, and that it is your responsibility to do so. When you know something is right, you should choose to do it. But as much as possible, we will not force you to do it. from the recent blog-post: http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-for-his-own.html http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-f...

noname123 12y ago

Tbh, I found the Washington Post profile of the moderator of /r/TheFappening to be even more fascinating. johnmcjohn frequented asexuality and Asperger forums and voiced his frustration, and detailed his financial troubles and professional failures on LinkedIn and begged for money from strangers on Reddit and also moderated and advised users on /r/cocaine on how to obtain and use cocaine. "It's odd that a man with self-diagnosed asexuality created a forum as a trove of naked celebrity photos." The degree of detail of personal information that we post online if someone resourceful enough like a reporter at WashPo can gather on ourselves, both our public or pseudo-anonymous personas truly reveal everything about our professional, psychological, financial and personal lives. Recently, two events happened to me where I was confronted with IRL with what I said online which I thought was anonymous. I felt really uncomfortable initially because I felt simultaneously really rude to the people who have read my comments because it was my pure unadulterated thoughts without any real life filter; and exposed because there are honest thoughts of mine like stream-of-conscious thoughts that I'd never express in public to communicate to someone else, kind of like Jimmy Carter who answered "Yes, in my thoughts" to the question of "Have you ever cheated on your wife." Going back to the main topic of discussion, if I was exposed to the core by WashPo, I'd be no better johnmcjohn. But like johnmcjohn who made his profile public again on Twitter because "there is nothing to hide," I feel honesty in all shapes of forms, even if it exposes you as a 33-year old guy with a questionable personal/professional background who shares celeb nudies is the way to go. I post a lot of provocative comments on this forum; the first few times, it was because I felt arrogant or wanted to attack some of the people-types whom I disliked in real life online. But after someone replied to one of my comment and gave a good counter-perspective and made me learn new things and new perspective. It made me not afraid to be downvoted and keep being honest. I hope that more confrontations and humiliations come my way, so that I can learn from them.

jacquesm 12y ago
> thoughts that I'd never express in public to communicate to someone else But you did! That's sort of the whole point here. So if you do it because you think you are anonymous (as in your identity is divorced from what you say) but it is stuff that you'd never express in public then you have essentially crossed one of your own rules. You shouldn't say/do stuff anonymously that you would not say/do when you're identified.