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Super disappointed with this. I was hoping for a bunch of sensors that fed my iPhone. Not something to discretely take meetings during a meeting. Here is what

Super disappointed with this. I was hoping for a bunch of sensors that fed my iPhone. Not something to discretely take meetings during a meeting. Here is what is missing for me: 1. Sweat sensor. 2. Insulin sensor. 3. Smarter/more accelerometers to intelligently automatically detect what I'm doing. For example, if I start lifting 50 lbs in a dumbell bench press it should know that! My iPhone should auto update a fitness tracking app. If I start biking my normal "track" here in Toronto, it should automatically know that! So underwhelmed here. 4. No mention of emergency assistance "stuff", (like detection of heart attacks, or spiking insulin levels). 5. Some really stupid / weird features, although I do kinda like the shared heartbeat one. Would be fun on exercises / first date makeouts :)

acjohnson55 12y ago
I agree that any real fitness tracking solution should be able to capture a gym workout accurately, but how would you propose the dumbell thing would work? With NFC or something?
- 3pt14159 12y ago
  With the right accelerometers and gyros you can actually do this very easily. I've actually done something similar during a basic engineering course (we were detecting earthquakes, but the math is the same). Edit: Downvote me all you want, but this is not that complicated to calculate.
  - drh 12y ago
    How would this work for a 2x as strong person lifting twice as much mass as a normal person? Wouldn't that data look essentially the same?
    - 3pt14159 12y ago
      A number of ways. First, it isn't just F = MA, the different joints and ligaments apply a different ratio of force depending on how strong you are. For example, biceps and hamstrings can get a lot stronger as a ratio of their typical strength than tendons in the wrist. By analysing known biometric data of the athlete (their weight, resting heart rate (athletes have a much lower rate), how fast they can cycle, perspiration patterns) and combining it with the gyros and accelerometers in both the phone and watch you should be able to accurately reverse calculate the weight and the exercise.
      - acjohnson55 12y ago
        Interesting. I'd love to see how accurate this method could be, because it seems like there's a lot of variables to account for, and even then, it might not fully determine the exercise and weight.
- niels_olson 12y ago
  Heart rate is a better indicator of metabolic effort than anything to do with accelerometers.
pinaceae 12y ago
so you expected Apple to bend the rules of physics and biology. alright. sooo underwhelmed.
stock_toaster 12y ago
> 2. Insulin sensor. How would it detect/monitor insulin levels? Have a needle on the back?
- huuu 12y ago
  http://googleblog.blogspot.nl/2014/01/introducing-our-smart-contact-lens.html http://googleblog.blogspot.nl/2014/01/introducing-our-smart-... Does Google put a needle in there contact lens? Don't think so... ;)
  - stock_toaster 12y ago
    1. That appears to still be at the prototype stage (as of that post in Jan?). 2. It goes right on your freakin' eye, and apparently measures your tears. So.. I guess if you strapped a watch to your eye it might work?
  - XorNot 12y ago
    No they stick a piece of glass in your eye. Seriously: that is highly experimental technology, based on an experimental technique, in a very specific part of the body. It is not remotely trivial to do that on regular skin. I know in particular because a friend just submitted his PhD on the use of microdermal patches for blood analysis: the short answer is, it might work, but no one actually has any idea how the levels of things they detect relate to what the normal blood levels are which our current health science is based on. EDIT: Also no one has any idea of what the sensor longevity would be. For new stuff like this, the answer tends to be single-use.
- masklinn 12y ago
  Bloodless glucometry via spectroscopy: http://www.groveinstruments.com/ http://www.groveinstruments.com/
  - stock_toaster 12y ago
    Now that is seriously cool. I imagine patented heavily. Are they actually available, or still in the trial phase? (I couldn't tell from the site)
k-mcgrady 12y ago
>> "4. No mention of emergency assistance "stuff", (like detection of heart attacks, or spiking insulin levels)." FDA. If they were to offer things like that they would have to go through so much regulation and approval it's probably not worth it right now. It would also cause leaks which they wouldn't want with the first gen.
- 3pt14159 12y ago
  I highly, highly doubt that s what is holding Apple back. There are tons of on market products for insulin testing and heart rate emergency response calls. All Apple has to do is announce that it works, and that it will come on a country by country basis as they work with various governmental agencies. It will get green lit by political pressure.
gmaster1440 12y ago
By Insulin sensor, do you mean a blood glucose monitor?
unclebunkers 12y ago
>> For example, if I start lifting 50 lbs in a dumbell bench press it should know that! Exactly how do you propose this would work? You are disappointed by diabetic specific monitors, the lack of an app that I'm sure someone will create someday, and something that physics will likely never be able to solve. I think it's safe to say that your expectations started in the realm of fantasy. Innovation can't ignore reality.
- alttab 12y ago
  People's expectations can, though. And when it comes to quarterly revenue statements, it matters.
- 3pt14159 12y ago
  There are already devices that have proved this concept in production (and waiting FDA approval) or on the market.
  - unclebunkers 12y ago
    Could you provide a link? I feel I'd have heard if any physics defying devices exist.
Kurtz79 12y ago
I don't think you can get much more information than heart rate from a non-invasive device whose only input is the surface contact with your wrist. Electrical Skin Resistance ("Sweat sensor") would be possible to measure, but in my brief experience with it is very unreliable as the sole source of information, since you get the same physical response from many different causes.
- photojosh 12y ago
  https://www.trainbsx.com/insight https://www.trainbsx.com/insight <- I've got in on the Kickstarter. Measures blood lactate.
varkson 12y ago
Why would they waste money on a high tech insulin sensor barely anyone will use?
sytelus 12y ago
I wanted altimeter and compass. I' using Casio PRG-70 since about 6+ years and I use them all the time during all kind of outdoor activities from hiking to biking to try finding way at Burning Man playa. This watch does not require batteries or charging at all - it gets all the charge it needs from day light (i.e. does not need actual sun light). They are submersible in water, dustproof in sandstorms, can be dropped on floor 100s of time, scratch proof against even fairly severe bumps, and has no problem in freezing cold or dessert heat. This makes them extremely reliable piece of tech you can count on regardless of your forgetfulness for charging them or natural elements. For me, they are my must-have outdoor companion. It was big bummer to see Apple Watch does not have compass and altimeter (there is no mention of it) and relies on iPhone for getting elevation and direction. They could have explored way for self-charging that many time pieces thses days offer. Smartwatch that doesn't need charging would truely be breakthrough.
count 12y ago
Now that Apple has gone public with it, they may be able to start submitting paperwork to FDA, partnering with other companies in a more open way, etc. It's hard to build a huge ecosystem/etc. for something that was just a rumor, without that competitive cover being blown.
computerjunkie 12y ago
Number 2 and number 4 - this is what a "smart" watch should aim for. Being able to detect an early heart attack or low/high insulin levels and send out warning SOS's to hospitals is a great idea. The amount of costs this would save, the lives this would save...but sending smiley face to someone is innovation. It amazes me how companies that have so much resources at their disposal cannot conduct research in these kind of domains.

acjohnson55 12y ago

I agree that any real fitness tracking solution should be able to capture a gym workout accurately, but how would you propose the dumbell thing would work? With NFC or something?

3pt14159 12y ago
With the right accelerometers and gyros you can actually do this very easily. I've actually done something similar during a basic engineering course (we were detecting earthquakes, but the math is the same). Edit: Downvote me all you want, but this is not that complicated to calculate.
- drh 12y ago
  How would this work for a 2x as strong person lifting twice as much mass as a normal person? Wouldn't that data look essentially the same?
  - 3pt14159 12y ago
    A number of ways. First, it isn't just F = MA, the different joints and ligaments apply a different ratio of force depending on how strong you are. For example, biceps and hamstrings can get a lot stronger as a ratio of their typical strength than tendons in the wrist. By analysing known biometric data of the athlete (their weight, resting heart rate (athletes have a much lower rate), how fast they can cycle, perspiration patterns) and combining it with the gyros and accelerometers in both the phone and watch you should be able to accurately reverse calculate the weight and the exercise.
    - acjohnson55 12y ago
      Interesting. I'd love to see how accurate this method could be, because it seems like there's a lot of variables to account for, and even then, it might not fully determine the exercise and weight.
niels_olson 12y ago
Heart rate is a better indicator of metabolic effort than anything to do with accelerometers.

pinaceae 12y ago

so you expected Apple to bend the rules of physics and biology. alright. sooo underwhelmed.

stock_toaster 12y ago

> 2. Insulin sensor. How would it detect/monitor insulin levels? Have a needle on the back?

huuu 12y ago
http://googleblog.blogspot.nl/2014/01/introducing-our-smart-contact-lens.html http://googleblog.blogspot.nl/2014/01/introducing-our-smart-... Does Google put a needle in there contact lens? Don't think so... ;)
- stock_toaster 12y ago
  1. That appears to still be at the prototype stage (as of that post in Jan?). 2. It goes right on your freakin' eye, and apparently measures your tears. So.. I guess if you strapped a watch to your eye it might work?
- XorNot 12y ago
  No they stick a piece of glass in your eye. Seriously: that is highly experimental technology, based on an experimental technique, in a very specific part of the body. It is not remotely trivial to do that on regular skin. I know in particular because a friend just submitted his PhD on the use of microdermal patches for blood analysis: the short answer is, it might work, but no one actually has any idea how the levels of things they detect relate to what the normal blood levels are which our current health science is based on. EDIT: Also no one has any idea of what the sensor longevity would be. For new stuff like this, the answer tends to be single-use.
masklinn 12y ago
Bloodless glucometry via spectroscopy: http://www.groveinstruments.com/ http://www.groveinstruments.com/
- stock_toaster 12y ago
  Now that is seriously cool. I imagine patented heavily. Are they actually available, or still in the trial phase? (I couldn't tell from the site)

k-mcgrady 12y ago

>> "4. No mention of emergency assistance "stuff", (like detection of heart attacks, or spiking insulin levels)." FDA. If they were to offer things like that they would have to go through so much regulation and approval it's probably not worth it right now. It would also cause leaks which they wouldn't want with the first gen.

3pt14159 12y ago
I highly, highly doubt that s what is holding Apple back. There are tons of on market products for insulin testing and heart rate emergency response calls. All Apple has to do is announce that it works, and that it will come on a country by country basis as they work with various governmental agencies. It will get green lit by political pressure.

gmaster1440 12y ago

By Insulin sensor, do you mean a blood glucose monitor?

unclebunkers 12y ago

>> For example, if I start lifting 50 lbs in a dumbell bench press it should know that! Exactly how do you propose this would work? You are disappointed by diabetic specific monitors, the lack of an app that I'm sure someone will create someday, and something that physics will likely never be able to solve. I think it's safe to say that your expectations started in the realm of fantasy. Innovation can't ignore reality.

alttab 12y ago
People's expectations can, though. And when it comes to quarterly revenue statements, it matters.
3pt14159 12y ago
There are already devices that have proved this concept in production (and waiting FDA approval) or on the market.
- unclebunkers 12y ago
  Could you provide a link? I feel I'd have heard if any physics defying devices exist.

Kurtz79 12y ago

I don't think you can get much more information than heart rate from a non-invasive device whose only input is the surface contact with your wrist. Electrical Skin Resistance ("Sweat sensor") would be possible to measure, but in my brief experience with it is very unreliable as the sole source of information, since you get the same physical response from many different causes.

photojosh 12y ago
https://www.trainbsx.com/insight https://www.trainbsx.com/insight <- I've got in on the Kickstarter. Measures blood lactate.

varkson 12y ago

Why would they waste money on a high tech insulin sensor barely anyone will use?

sytelus 12y ago

I wanted altimeter and compass. I' using Casio PRG-70 since about 6+ years and I use them all the time during all kind of outdoor activities from hiking to biking to try finding way at Burning Man playa. This watch does not require batteries or charging at all - it gets all the charge it needs from day light (i.e. does not need actual sun light). They are submersible in water, dustproof in sandstorms, can be dropped on floor 100s of time, scratch proof against even fairly severe bumps, and has no problem in freezing cold or dessert heat. This makes them extremely reliable piece of tech you can count on regardless of your forgetfulness for charging them or natural elements. For me, they are my must-have outdoor companion. It was big bummer to see Apple Watch does not have compass and altimeter (there is no mention of it) and relies on iPhone for getting elevation and direction. They could have explored way for self-charging that many time pieces thses days offer. Smartwatch that doesn't need charging would truely be breakthrough.

count 12y ago

Now that Apple has gone public with it, they may be able to start submitting paperwork to FDA, partnering with other companies in a more open way, etc. It's hard to build a huge ecosystem/etc. for something that was just a rumor, without that competitive cover being blown.

computerjunkie 12y ago

Number 2 and number 4 - this is what a "smart" watch should aim for. Being able to detect an early heart attack or low/high insulin levels and send out warning SOS's to hospitals is a great idea. The amount of costs this would save, the lives this would save...but sending smiley face to someone is innovation. It amazes me how companies that have so much resources at their disposal cannot conduct research in these kind of domains.