4 ms·

You have this a bit wrong. If ability is normally distributed for a given sex (and the mean of the ability of the same), then it is true that there would be mo

by 6nne 12y ago

You have this a bit wrong. If ability is normally distributed for a given sex (and the mean of the ability of the same), then it is true that there would be more above-average male programmers than female programmers - just as there are more male programmers than female programmers at any skill level. If you are provided a skilled programmer, they are most likely male. And if you are provided any programmer, they are most likely male. However, If you pick a random male programmer and a random female programmer, the woman is just as likely to be a good coder as the man. This means that if you are talking to an anonymous person online and they are a good coder, you should assume they are male (if you're going to assume anything). This does not work backwards - if you are talking to a female programmer and you do not know their coding ability, it would not be particularly likely that they are a poor coder.

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- 6nne 12y ago
  I don't know if you meant for your argument to be applicable to Gayle, but if so... well, it is not applicable. People only knew her gender and assumed she was not skilled because of it.
  - mcv 12y ago
    They knew her gender and that she'd been talking code for an hour, and still assumed she was not skilled because of it. Some people are unbelievably dense.
- MrScruff 12y ago
  But you were responding to a quote ">Woman. Probably not a good coder" Which would imply the probability of a woman being a good coder was lower from the probability of a man being a good coder. This is quite different to the probability of a good programmer being a man being higher than the probability of a good programmer being a woman. I mean, the probability of a good programmer being swedish isn't that high but it doesn't tell you much about the quality of programming in Sweden.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Sure, but that point is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Which is probably why you keep getting downvoted.
- lutusp 12y ago
  > This is what I meant. Given a skilled programmer, it's more likely to be a male. That might have been what you meant, but it isn't what you said. You said: > Then we can conclude that there are more male programmers that are above this mean. Not as a percentage of their cohort, which is the only rational way of expressing this idea.
mcv 12y ago
You should not assume anything. Given any random coder, yes, the chance that they're male is larger than the chance that they are female, but the chance that they are female is still present, and if you jump to the wrong assumption too early, you end up effectively denying their existence, which is a big part of the problem. Consider it from the point of view of the female coder: in every discussion, people will always start out assuming either that she is male or that she can't code. And it's up to her to either correct that (with all the crap that often comes with it) or not, and let people believe there are no female coders. Constantly running into people assuming you don't exist, can be very demotivating, and may lead her to look for a more welcoming job. Let's not do that anymore, okay?

by 6nne 12y ago

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6nne 12y ago
I don't know if you meant for your argument to be applicable to Gayle, but if so... well, it is not applicable. People only knew her gender and assumed she was not skilled because of it.
- mcv 12y ago
  They knew her gender and that she'd been talking code for an hour, and still assumed she was not skilled because of it. Some people are unbelievably dense.
MrScruff 12y ago
But you were responding to a quote ">Woman. Probably not a good coder" Which would imply the probability of a woman being a good coder was lower from the probability of a man being a good coder. This is quite different to the probability of a good programmer being a man being higher than the probability of a good programmer being a woman. I mean, the probability of a good programmer being swedish isn't that high but it doesn't tell you much about the quality of programming in Sweden.
dragonwriter 12y ago
Sure, but that point is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Which is probably why you keep getting downvoted.
lutusp 12y ago
> This is what I meant. Given a skilled programmer, it's more likely to be a male. That might have been what you meant, but it isn't what you said. You said: > Then we can conclude that there are more male programmers that are above this mean. Not as a percentage of their cohort, which is the only rational way of expressing this idea.

mcv 12y ago

You should not assume anything. Given any random coder, yes, the chance that they're male is larger than the chance that they are female, but the chance that they are female is still present, and if you jump to the wrong assumption too early, you end up effectively denying their existence, which is a big part of the problem. Consider it from the point of view of the female coder: in every discussion, people will always start out assuming either that she is male or that she can't code. And it's up to her to either correct that (with all the crap that often comes with it) or not, and let people believe there are no female coders. Constantly running into people assuming you don't exist, can be very demotivating, and may lead her to look for a more welcoming job. Let's not do that anymore, okay?