8 ms·

Ask HN: My employer doesn't want to pay me

9 points by ukdev 12y ago

Hi HN, I'm UK based dev. My employer is avoiding me. I'm sure he/she doesn't want to pay me. What can I do? - I have signed contract but without a witness. Is it still valid to go to county court? - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) - I'll use my SEO skill so the first result on Google will be "XXX is someone cannot be trusted" - I have a evidence that he/she was acting in a conflict of interest. I'm gonna email board members and investor. What would you do and in which order?

duncan_bayne 12y ago
Either: speak to a lawyer, or go to county court (if it's a small amount; it sounds like a county court is something like the small claims court where I live). Don't do anything retaliatory or hostile until you've exhausted your legal options, because it will either leave you liable for damages, or harm your case, or both.
facorreia 12y ago
If you take any of these actions (specially the "other stuff") you'll open yourself to criminal and civil prosecution including damages, defamation and cyber crimes. You need legal assistance. Maybe you can start here: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_rights_at_work_e/basic_rights_at_work.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_rights_at_..., http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/employment_law http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/employment_law
- ukdev 12y ago
  The problem is the contract is not signed by the witness and before I'd go to court and burn the cash I'd like to threaten that my legal and "PR" actions will cause 10x damage.
  - dalke 12y ago
    Quoting from https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081013154733AApY1eo https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200810131547... : > Few if any business contracts actually require witnesses in order to be valid. In very general terms all you need is terms that are clear enough to be enforced. > The contract would be considered legally binding as both parties agreed to it, put their signatures on it and had it in writing. Witnesses are not always necessary. You could even have a contract by word of mouth. > get some free legal advice from someone who can look over the contract. This could be at a CAB. Or, if you're near to a University that has a law school, the students there often hold free legal advice clinics - excellent quality of advice (overseen by tutors) The CAB home page for England, which facorreia already pointed out, is at http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.htm (or you can choose Wales, etc.). Search for "unpaid wages", for an additional list of helpful pages. Do not retaliate or threaten to retaliate. This could get you in 100x trouble.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    'I'd like to threaten that my legal and "PR" actions will cause 10x damage.' I understand the feeling, but this is likely an unimaginably bad idea.
  - viraptor 12y ago
    It doesn't have to be signed by a witness. Have you got the employer's signature and your own? You're good to go. Submitting your claim online will cost you around ~£100 in the UK. You'll probably not even need to go all the way to the court and for small claims stuff you don't need to (but still can) hire a lawyer.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Call a solicitor! If you don't know who to call then call your local bar association and explain that you have an employment problem. Typically a first consultation will be free. - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) ...and stop posting nonsense stuff like this, even though you may be justifiably angry. That sort of thing is a good way to end up being the defendant in a lawsuit, instead of the plaintiff. Stop with the revenge fantasies and call a professional. Right now you are angry because you have been shafted by this employer, who has basically put one over on you. If you start making angry threats you are likely to end up in even worse trouble and your employer will end up looking like the victim while you will look like the villain. I promise you that getting a letter from a solicitor will rattle your employer a hell of a lot more than any threatening behavior you could possibly engage in.
- ukdev 12y ago
  I called them and they said it's too small amount and they cannot help me. They said I should go to employment tribunal or to small claim court, but first I should draft a letter and send them explaining that I'm serious. Does anyone have an example of a well written letter? http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_taking_action_e/consumer_legal_actions_e/consumer_going_to_court_e/consumer_taking_court_action_e/letter_before_action.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_taki... http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/letter-before-...
  - tehwebguy 12y ago
    Are they actually your employer or a client of yours?
    - ukdev 12y ago
      I'm salaried employee.
      - 12y ago
issa 12y ago
It's already been said, but take heed: do not do anything illegal or unethical yourself. Be professional.
viraptor 12y ago
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court Do not break anything, or you'll be also liable. There are official ways of dealing with people not paying - use them.
dllthomas 12y ago
Others have cautioned against taking down the site or similar, and I second those. I'd also like to point out that libel laws in the UK can bite you even when you tell the truth so I'd be careful with the bad press approach as well. As virtually everyone has said, the very first thing to do is get in touch with a solicitor. The next thing to do is follow their advice, which I would expect would be first sending a "srsly, pay me" letter, and then going to court if that doesn't work.
CyberFonic 12y ago
I'm not a lawyer. AND I do recommend you consult with one. The following is a suggestion you might want to discuss. Based on your contract, you should be able to get an enforceable demand for your employer to pay you. If you are not paid and the deadline for payment expires, you might be able to get a lien over the server and other property. At that stage you can shut things down, etc. If the employer is a company then there might be a case for flagging them as trading whilst insolvent. Under UK law that is a biggie. As @issa suggests maintain your dignity and professionalism. Taking revenge could put a dark cloud above your reputation. Unless you have political skillz be very careful with how and with what you contact board members. They might be in cahoots with your problem person. I'd suggest in person meeting so you can better assess the situation. Emails are often very unsuitable for such information.
Spoom 12y ago
What would you do and in which order? If I was your employer? I'd get a restraining order against you and use this post as cause to fire you, as well as keeping it for a great defense against a lawsuit (since you've painted yourself as a malicious hacker).
brudgers 12y ago
My advice, consider just walking away and finding another job. I'm not saying that that's what you should do, only something that is worth considering. Collecting may take a lot of time and energy. That time and energy is on top of the time and energy spent actually showing up at the office and doing the work, and the time already spent is a sunk cost. Finding other gainful work gives a person options. It gives a person time, and reduces financial pressure. It lets a person look forward. Good luck.
jason_slack 12y ago
My advice: be more professional. What you posted makes you sound childish with how you might "get even" for them doing this to you. Remove this post, walk away from the job, gain other employment and try and get paid from them for the work you have done. Have you seen the movie "Office Space"? There is a scene where they just stop paying an employee in hopes they get the picture and just leave on their own. A non-confrontational way to part ways....
junto 12y ago
You don't do anything that could jeopardise your position. Your first step is to get help. If you haven't been paid in full Speak to your employer first to try to sort the problem informally. If this doesn't work, talk to Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service), Citizens Advice or your trade union representative. You have the right to go to an Employment Tribunal to get your money. I was in a similar position a few years ago. We were told though that the company was in financial difficulty. We later found out that the company had been withholding pensions payments (and PPP employer payments). It is a illegal and your employer can be prosecuted. If you have similar concerns then you can report them: http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/individuals/reporting-a-concern.aspx http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/individuals/reporting... The following links will help you: - ACAS: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461 http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461 - Citizen's Advice: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchbox http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchb... - Gov: https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-yo... If your employer is refusing the talk to you, then you are left with little choice but to move on to arbitration. That's what ACAS are there for. Approach the whole thing calmly. Do not get angry and make stupid mistakes (like deleting websites or code). Do not shout and scream at your employer. Remain calm and civil. I often like to pretend that I am acting as a consultant for myself when dealing with situations like this. It helps you to remain more impartial. Your job is first to understand exactly what is owed. Then you need to extract £x.xx from your employer. You then would also like an explanation if they feel like keeping you in their employment. Then should you choose to leave, because their explanation was not to satisfaction, then you would like a letter of recommendation. However, do not quit until you speak to Citizen's advice first. There maybe implications if you quit before your resolve your greviances.
tptacek 12y ago
- I have signed contract but without a witness. Is it still valid to go to county court? Yes. - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) No. Ask lawyer first. - I'll use my SEO skill so the first result on Google will be "XXX is someone cannot be trusted" No. - I have a evidence that he/she was acting in a conflict of interest. I'm gonna email board members and investor. No. Later It seems to turn out that this: - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) ... refers to the company's website. Thus stipulated, my "No, talk to a lawyer" is "No, that would be insane; you could end up criminally liable".

9 points by ukdev 12y ago

duncan_bayne 12y ago

Either: speak to a lawyer, or go to county court (if it's a small amount; it sounds like a county court is something like the small claims court where I live). Don't do anything retaliatory or hostile until you've exhausted your legal options, because it will either leave you liable for damages, or harm your case, or both.

facorreia 12y ago

If you take any of these actions (specially the "other stuff") you'll open yourself to criminal and civil prosecution including damages, defamation and cyber crimes. You need legal assistance. Maybe you can start here: http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_rights_at_work_e/basic_rights_at_work.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_rights_at_..., http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/employment_law http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/employment_law

ukdev 12y ago
The problem is the contract is not signed by the witness and before I'd go to court and burn the cash I'd like to threaten that my legal and "PR" actions will cause 10x damage.
- dalke 12y ago
  Quoting from https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081013154733AApY1eo https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200810131547... : > Few if any business contracts actually require witnesses in order to be valid. In very general terms all you need is terms that are clear enough to be enforced. > The contract would be considered legally binding as both parties agreed to it, put their signatures on it and had it in writing. Witnesses are not always necessary. You could even have a contract by word of mouth. > get some free legal advice from someone who can look over the contract. This could be at a CAB. Or, if you're near to a University that has a law school, the students there often hold free legal advice clinics - excellent quality of advice (overseen by tutors) The CAB home page for England, which facorreia already pointed out, is at http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england.htm (or you can choose Wales, etc.). Search for "unpaid wages", for an additional list of helpful pages. Do not retaliate or threaten to retaliate. This could get you in 100x trouble.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  'I'd like to threaten that my legal and "PR" actions will cause 10x damage.' I understand the feeling, but this is likely an unimaginably bad idea.
- viraptor 12y ago
  It doesn't have to be signed by a witness. Have you got the employer's signature and your own? You're good to go. Submitting your claim online will cost you around ~£100 in the UK. You'll probably not even need to go all the way to the court and for small claims stuff you don't need to (but still can) hire a lawyer.

anigbrowl 12y ago

Call a solicitor! If you don't know who to call then call your local bar association and explain that you have an employment problem. Typically a first consultation will be free. - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) ...and stop posting nonsense stuff like this, even though you may be justifiably angry. That sort of thing is a good way to end up being the defendant in a lawsuit, instead of the plaintiff. Stop with the revenge fantasies and call a professional. Right now you are angry because you have been shafted by this employer, who has basically put one over on you. If you start making angry threats you are likely to end up in even worse trouble and your employer will end up looking like the victim while you will look like the villain. I promise you that getting a letter from a solicitor will rattle your employer a hell of a lot more than any threatening behavior you could possibly engage in.

ukdev 12y ago
I called them and they said it's too small amount and they cannot help me. They said I should go to employment tribunal or to small claim court, but first I should draft a letter and send them explaining that I'm serious. Does anyone have an example of a well written letter? http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_taking_action_e/consumer_legal_actions_e/consumer_going_to_court_e/consumer_taking_court_action_e/letter_before_action.htm http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/consumer_w/consumer_taki... http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/action/letter-before-...
- tehwebguy 12y ago
  Are they actually your employer or a client of yours?
  - ukdev 12y ago
    I'm salaried employee.
    - 12y ago

issa 12y ago

It's already been said, but take heed: do not do anything illegal or unethical yourself. Be professional.

viraptor 12y ago

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/going-to-court Do not break anything, or you'll be also liable. There are official ways of dealing with people not paying - use them.

dllthomas 12y ago

Others have cautioned against taking down the site or similar, and I second those. I'd also like to point out that libel laws in the UK can bite you even when you tell the truth so I'd be careful with the bad press approach as well. As virtually everyone has said, the very first thing to do is get in touch with a solicitor. The next thing to do is follow their advice, which I would expect would be first sending a "srsly, pay me" letter, and then going to court if that doesn't work.

CyberFonic 12y ago

I'm not a lawyer. AND I do recommend you consult with one. The following is a suggestion you might want to discuss. Based on your contract, you should be able to get an enforceable demand for your employer to pay you. If you are not paid and the deadline for payment expires, you might be able to get a lien over the server and other property. At that stage you can shut things down, etc. If the employer is a company then there might be a case for flagging them as trading whilst insolvent. Under UK law that is a biggie. As @issa suggests maintain your dignity and professionalism. Taking revenge could put a dark cloud above your reputation. Unless you have political skillz be very careful with how and with what you contact board members. They might be in cahoots with your problem person. I'd suggest in person meeting so you can better assess the situation. Emails are often very unsuitable for such information.

Spoom 12y ago

What would you do and in which order? If I was your employer? I'd get a restraining order against you and use this post as cause to fire you, as well as keeping it for a great defense against a lawsuit (since you've painted yourself as a malicious hacker).

brudgers 12y ago

My advice, consider just walking away and finding another job. I'm not saying that that's what you should do, only something that is worth considering. Collecting may take a lot of time and energy. That time and energy is on top of the time and energy spent actually showing up at the office and doing the work, and the time already spent is a sunk cost. Finding other gainful work gives a person options. It gives a person time, and reduces financial pressure. It lets a person look forward. Good luck.

jason_slack 12y ago

My advice: be more professional. What you posted makes you sound childish with how you might "get even" for them doing this to you. Remove this post, walk away from the job, gain other employment and try and get paid from them for the work you have done. Have you seen the movie "Office Space"? There is a scene where they just stop paying an employee in hopes they get the picture and just leave on their own. A non-confrontational way to part ways....

junto 12y ago

You don't do anything that could jeopardise your position. Your first step is to get help. If you haven't been paid in full Speak to your employer first to try to sort the problem informally. If this doesn't work, talk to Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service), Citizens Advice or your trade union representative. You have the right to go to an Employment Tribunal to get your money. I was in a similar position a few years ago. We were told though that the company was in financial difficulty. We later found out that the company had been withholding pensions payments (and PPP employer payments). It is a illegal and your employer can be prosecuted. If you have similar concerns then you can report them: http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/individuals/reporting-a-concern.aspx http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/individuals/reporting... The following links will help you: - ACAS: http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461 http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1461 - Citizen's Advice: http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchbox http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm#searchb... - Gov: https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-your-pay https://www.gov.uk/understanding-your-pay/deductions-from-yo... If your employer is refusing the talk to you, then you are left with little choice but to move on to arbitration. That's what ACAS are there for. Approach the whole thing calmly. Do not get angry and make stupid mistakes (like deleting websites or code). Do not shout and scream at your employer. Remain calm and civil. I often like to pretend that I am acting as a consultant for myself when dealing with situations like this. It helps you to remain more impartial. Your job is first to understand exactly what is owed. Then you need to extract £x.xx from your employer. You then would also like an explanation if they feel like keeping you in their employment. Then should you choose to leave, because their explanation was not to satisfaction, then you would like a letter of recommendation. However, do not quit until you speak to Citizen's advice first. There maybe implications if you quit before your resolve your greviances.

tptacek 12y ago

- I have signed contract but without a witness. Is it still valid to go to county court? Yes. - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) No. Ask lawyer first. - I'll use my SEO skill so the first result on Google will be "XXX is someone cannot be trusted" No. - I have a evidence that he/she was acting in a conflict of interest. I'm gonna email board members and investor. No. Later It seems to turn out that this: - I have the access to the server so I'm going to take down the website (I can do other suff as well) ... refers to the company's website. Thus stipulated, my "No, talk to a lawyer" is "No, that would be insane; you could end up criminally liable".