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> Is it not insulting when they suggest that, alone among all the peoples of the world, only the Scottish are incapable of democratically determining what is be

> Is it not insulting when they suggest that, alone among all the peoples of the world, only the Scottish are incapable of democratically determining what is best for them and acting in their own best interests? Surely as an Irishman you are familiar with the Wales, and Northern Ireland? I agree that the chip on the shoulder attitude does exist in Scotland, but I don't think that independence is the magical solution you propose. I am also Irish, and there is a very similar sentiment towards the English in people here, yet we have had our independence for generations now. I think that the solution to that kind of sentiment is to work more towards inclusiveness. Again I think we have a perfect example of this on our doorstep - we have only started to make progress with the troubles in Northern Ireland when politicians sat down and started working together. I don't know what side of the debate I side with, but it sounds to me like you have bought all the emotional rhetoric that the yes campaign have been selling. I fail to see result of the vote having any great consequence for Scotland, they will still be EU members after all.

WordSkill 12y ago
As someone who lives here, I have to think with my brain, not just go with my heart. I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between any remaining grudges the Irish may have against the English - and, honestly, in my experience, the Irish and the English get on terrifically well - and the extremely dark feelings that most Scottish people harbour. This feeling of oppression, and the self-loathing that accompanies it, seeps into every aspect of life. When working in the startup scene in Scotland, I was always taken aback, on visits home, by the relative positivity and optimism of the Irish startup scene. Many Scottish point to the Irish crash as an example of why independence is a terrible idea but, seriously, even after the crash, there was more energy in Ireland than there ever was in Scotland. This is a country in permanent depression. The natural progression of what you are saying is that Ireland should have remained in the United Kingdom because, after all, they would still be EU members.
roywiggins 12y ago
> "they will still be EU members after all" Last I heard, they'll have to apply to get in, which could take five years. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/08/uk-scotland-independence-eu-idUKKBN0H31FK20140908 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/08/uk-scotland-indepen...
- WordSkill 12y ago
  The EU commissioners would prefer everything to remain as it is because the UK government has promised an in-out referendum on the EU and, quite simply, they figure there is more chance of the in vote winning if Scotland is still part of the UK at that time. So, the EU commissioners will say all they can to keep the UK together. However ... the tone will rapidly change if Scotland does go independent. There is zero chance that the EU will risk forcing a prosperous, educated country that is already compliant with EU laws out and make them spend several years re-applying, especially when there is a real chance that England will be leaving. The EU is a business, a very lucrative one. They need the rich countries to pay for the poor, uneducated, mafia-riddled ones to the south and the east. They already lost oil-rich Norway years ago, they won't make the same mistake again. Just watch, the EU will arrange for "special status" to kick in on the very first day of independence, nothing will change.
  - pi-err 12y ago
    You're not helping the Scottish cause with junk info like this. (I'm French and pro-independence) "EU is a business", "north pays for south", "zero chance that the EU..." - all parts of a thought process that'd lead you to disaster . The EU is a complex, unique international organization designed to bring peace through unprecedented one-of-a-kind economic development. I get from Brussels insiders that a best-case scenario is an independent Scotland joining the eurozone, while rUK votes to stay in the EU with a "ad hoc" status. Now most member states have very different feelings about this. This forces the EU Commission to keep a low profile and stick to conservative answers on any independence question. You have to realize that there _is_ a risk that some member states can block a fast track accession to EU for iScotland. For instance iScotland could have to go through a 3-5 years roadmap and audit until the standard 12 points for accession are cleared (vs a best case, unprecedented 12-months fast track to the EU). As I see it, this is the biggest risk for iScotland. Even with EU Parliament on your side, member states have influence and power that could slow down the process, and expose the new country to a tough start. I hope the Yes wins, but I hope the win doesn't get ruined with unrealistic expectations. Wikipedia has a nice sum up of the complexity of this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_Euro...

WordSkill 12y ago

As someone who lives here, I have to think with my brain, not just go with my heart. I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between any remaining grudges the Irish may have against the English - and, honestly, in my experience, the Irish and the English get on terrifically well - and the extremely dark feelings that most Scottish people harbour. This feeling of oppression, and the self-loathing that accompanies it, seeps into every aspect of life. When working in the startup scene in Scotland, I was always taken aback, on visits home, by the relative positivity and optimism of the Irish startup scene. Many Scottish point to the Irish crash as an example of why independence is a terrible idea but, seriously, even after the crash, there was more energy in Ireland than there ever was in Scotland. This is a country in permanent depression. The natural progression of what you are saying is that Ireland should have remained in the United Kingdom because, after all, they would still be EU members.

roywiggins 12y ago

> "they will still be EU members after all" Last I heard, they'll have to apply to get in, which could take five years. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/08/uk-scotland-independence-eu-idUKKBN0H31FK20140908 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/08/uk-scotland-indepen...

WordSkill 12y ago
The EU commissioners would prefer everything to remain as it is because the UK government has promised an in-out referendum on the EU and, quite simply, they figure there is more chance of the in vote winning if Scotland is still part of the UK at that time. So, the EU commissioners will say all they can to keep the UK together. However ... the tone will rapidly change if Scotland does go independent. There is zero chance that the EU will risk forcing a prosperous, educated country that is already compliant with EU laws out and make them spend several years re-applying, especially when there is a real chance that England will be leaving. The EU is a business, a very lucrative one. They need the rich countries to pay for the poor, uneducated, mafia-riddled ones to the south and the east. They already lost oil-rich Norway years ago, they won't make the same mistake again. Just watch, the EU will arrange for "special status" to kick in on the very first day of independence, nothing will change.
- pi-err 12y ago
  You're not helping the Scottish cause with junk info like this. (I'm French and pro-independence) "EU is a business", "north pays for south", "zero chance that the EU..." - all parts of a thought process that'd lead you to disaster . The EU is a complex, unique international organization designed to bring peace through unprecedented one-of-a-kind economic development. I get from Brussels insiders that a best-case scenario is an independent Scotland joining the eurozone, while rUK votes to stay in the EU with a "ad hoc" status. Now most member states have very different feelings about this. This forces the EU Commission to keep a low profile and stick to conservative answers on any independence question. You have to realize that there _is_ a risk that some member states can block a fast track accession to EU for iScotland. For instance iScotland could have to go through a 3-5 years roadmap and audit until the standard 12 points for accession are cleared (vs a best case, unprecedented 12-months fast track to the EU). As I see it, this is the biggest risk for iScotland. Even with EU Parliament on your side, member states have influence and power that could slow down the process, and expose the new country to a tough start. I hope the Yes wins, but I hope the win doesn't get ruined with unrealistic expectations. Wikipedia has a nice sum up of the complexity of this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Scotland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_enlargement_of_the_Euro...