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Why is every mention of possible disclosure of Satoshi's identity fraught with heavy overtones of "Your Life Is In Grave Danger"? We have many people who are mu

by Steko 12y ago

Why is every mention of possible disclosure of Satoshi's identity fraught with heavy overtones of "Your Life Is In Grave Danger"? We have many people who are much richer whose identities are not secret and we don't need to freak out constantly and warn them that They Are In Grave Danger. AFAIK he's not been accused of any crime either. Is it maybe because Bitcoin enthusiasts have a large overlap with monatery cranks who tend to be conspiracy theorists?

mikedouglas 12y ago
While you're 95% right, you could also argue that irreversible hundred million dollar transactions are a feature unique to bitcoin. That could appeal to kidnappers.
- Steko 12y ago
  So you're saying holding Bitcoin can be hazardous to our health? Whoa, I don't think that's one of the approved talking points.
  - nostromo 12y ago
    If you have a few thousand dollars of gold in your house, you shouldn't worry too much. But if you have a billion dollars of gold in your basement, you should be very, very paranoid. Even with perfect security, you'd still be a ransom target.
    - Steko 12y ago
      If you were very paranoid would you rely exclusively on security through obscurity? It might also occur to you to diversify out of the thing that puts you at risk. Maybe there's even some sort of establishment that can hold funds more securely. He should look into that.
      - NhanH 12y ago
        "Security through obscurity" being bad only applies to cryptography, and have no bearing whatsoever to the concept of security in real life. To answer your question, actually, yes, it's almost proven to be the most effective measurement for one's safety: don't want to get hurt? Don't let people find you: get in a forest/ mountain range and hide.
        Steko 12y ago
        Now First Blood is an underrated movie but I'm not sure it, or anything else, supports your claims. Hiding in the mountains has been a proven way of lowering life expectancy for millennia.
        thaumaturgy 12y ago
        This thread matches the "increases bob's chances of being a k00k" pattern from the recent thread patterns link: http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/thread_patterns/
        Steko 12y ago
        Lol missing context: "Or he's really right and everyone else is wrong."
        tripzilch 12y ago
        On HN I've seen that pattern and sometimes it was a well-respected poster, hammering on something pedantic and off-topic, derailing the thread. Point being, sometimes someone can be right, really knowledgeable and a (thread-localised) k00k. added: then again, there's also something about HN's discussion structure (mainly lack of collapsing comments like Reddit has) that makes these derails get in the way much more than necessary. Reddit even has place for strings of puns without them significantly derailing the discussion.
        micro_cam 12y ago
    - nly 12y ago
      > But if you have a billion dollars of gold in your basement, you should be very, very paranoid. At close to 25 tonnes, and ~1.3m³, I'd like to see the engineering behind such a heist
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        Kill occupants of building, move 1.3 cubic meters of gold in 30 trips with transport van. Now you have a few other problems, such as making sure that you're not going to end up in the same way. Besides surveillance cam footage recording your whereabout during part of your trip and the distance being fairly easily estimated if you do two trips in quick succession leading to a possible ID and or location of the stash. But getting it out of there is fairly easy if you lack a conscience and have a van. If you had access to a slightly larger truck it would be easier still.
        dredwerker 12y ago
        I believe all you need is several mini coopers.
        rmetzler 12y ago
        I understand that reference.
        joshfraser 12y ago
        Procuring a "slightly larger truck" should be trivial given the value of the heist.
        alxndr 12y ago
        > getting it out of there is fairly easy if you lack a conscience and have a van new favorite HN quote
      - ctdonath 12y ago
        Someone stole 6 million pounds of maple syrup from Canada's strategic reserves. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-02/the-great-canadian-maple-syrup-heist http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-02/the-great-ca... I'm sure moving a couple cubic meters of gold isn't a problem if you're motivated.
    - copenja 12y ago
      Does this same danger also apply to bitcoin exchanges? Are they heavily guarded? Just wondering...
      - jonknee 12y ago
        Ask Mt. Gox... Typically an exchange will keep most of its BTC in actual bank vaults. Similar to how you'd store a large amount of gold.
        dobbsbob 12y ago
        They claim they do but there's never been any 3rd party auditing or verification of this that I know of. In the gold business every reliable business has auditing and insurance while so far Bitcoin businesses are run like a regular startup with open offices. Who's cleaning the offices after hours with access to the workstations or servers, who are the hired developers and are they smuggling wallet stealing software inside to transfer to themselves while on a flight to Brazil, who is writing their custom wallet and is it robust, how do we know they didn't copy every address to themselves. Lot's of security questions I've never seen addressed by any of the big exchanges. There was a payment processor startup that posted their office to bitcointalk.org which was floor to ceiling open glass windows with laptops facing the outside. How many binoculars are trained on those laptops across the street to get logins. Some friends of mine trade large amounts of Bitcoin on a regular basis and there's never been much of a delay withdrawing. I doubt they are going to a bank to physically take out printed keys everyday for every transaction over $10,000 or phoning 5 people to combine keys. I bet the backups are kept in a safe deposit box, the cold wallet is likely an offline system anybody can walk up to with some kind of feeble authentication judging by past Bitcoin exchange incompetence. Many of the smaller exchanges are using Blockchain.info wallets as their hot wallet too but won't admit it.
        krapp 12y ago
        >There's never been any 3rd party auditing or verification of this that I know of. I think that's intended to be a feature and not a bug. With Bitcoin 'third party verification' means other people no longer use a service after you've generously sacrificed your money to demonstrate their incompetence or malice.
    - pantaril 12y ago
      >But if you have a billion dollars of gold in your basement, you should be very, very paranoid. If i had so many bitcoins as Satoshi Nakamoto i would certainly not store them in my basement. I'd split my private key using n:m scheme and store them in secure deposit boxes in banks.
      - Anderkent 12y ago
        That doesn't matter much if they can grab you and apply crowbar.
    - donkeyd 12y ago
      If I'd have a billion dollars of worth gold in my Basement I'd be impressed if somebody managed to steal it. Since 1bn USD in gold would weigh 22603KG...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- ghshephard 12y ago
  What $500mm are you referring to?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - matznerd 12y ago
    Satoshi mined more than 1 million bitcoins...
- dustcoin 12y ago
  I haven't heard of a single MtGox creditor that has expressed anger towards Satoshi.
  - Bud 12y ago
    If you were really, really angry, and planning to do something about it, would you broadcast that?
    - georgemcbay 12y ago
      If I were rational enough to plan that far ahead, I'd probably be rational enough to realize that the guy who invented bitcoin isn't responsible for anything and everything that happens with it, particularly events to which he has no connection other than having been the inventor. Like if someone steals my expensive Android phone, I'm not going to find Andy Rubin and punch him. Because that ... just wouldn't make any sense.
      - schoen 12y ago
        Surely Edwin Armstrong bears even greater responsibility in light of his invention of the superheterodyne receiver!
6d0debc071 12y ago
> Why is every mention of possible disclosure of Satoshi's identity fraught with heavy overtones of "Your Life Is In Grave Danger"? We have many people who are much richer whose identities are not secret and we don't need to freak out constantly and warn them that They Are In Grave Danger. I think they probably know already. At least if the body guards are anything to go by.
justin66 12y ago
> AFAIK he's not been accused of any crime either. I imagine the IRS really would like to audit him if he's an American citizen, however.
- Steko 12y ago
  Presumably the Bitcoins were not worth anything when he mined them and he won't owe any capital gains until he sells them.
  - justin66 12y ago
    Quite true. Keep in mind, the IRS can audit you out of what amounts to mere curiosity. Having your net worth go up by half a billion or whatever is the sort of thing that might raise some flags and cause someone to want to verify that you haven't realized any of those capital gains, gifted any of them to someone else off the record, or some other thing. On the bright side, Satoshi Nakamoto should be able to afford a good tax attorney. He'd be a bit nutty not to have one already, honestly.
- aric 12y ago
  The euphemism known as an IRS audit would interfere in his life if an exchange into or out of USD took place. Anyone can attribute value to anything. That doesn't make it valuable. Taxation here would require provable gains or losses, as with USD. The transactions of people exchanging only in [bitcoins, metal, coffee beans, rocks, fancy/worthless paper], not in USD, do not imply that any taxable "gains" or "losses" occurred. If it implied this, there would equally be a lot of losses claimed.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - redblacktree 12y ago
    It might be covered under bartering. http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html

by Steko 12y ago

mikedouglas 12y ago

While you're 95% right, you could also argue that irreversible hundred million dollar transactions are a feature unique to bitcoin. That could appeal to kidnappers.

Steko 12y ago
So you're saying holding Bitcoin can be hazardous to our health? Whoa, I don't think that's one of the approved talking points.
- nostromo 12y ago
  If you have a few thousand dollars of gold in your house, you shouldn't worry too much. But if you have a billion dollars of gold in your basement, you should be very, very paranoid. Even with perfect security, you'd still be a ransom target.
  - Steko 12y ago
    If you were very paranoid would you rely exclusively on security through obscurity? It might also occur to you to diversify out of the thing that puts you at risk. Maybe there's even some sort of establishment that can hold funds more securely. He should look into that.
    - NhanH 12y ago
      "Security through obscurity" being bad only applies to cryptography, and have no bearing whatsoever to the concept of security in real life. To answer your question, actually, yes, it's almost proven to be the most effective measurement for one's safety: don't want to get hurt? Don't let people find you: get in a forest/ mountain range and hide.
      - Steko 12y ago
        Now First Blood is an underrated movie but I'm not sure it, or anything else, supports your claims. Hiding in the mountains has been a proven way of lowering life expectancy for millennia.
        thaumaturgy 12y ago
        This thread matches the "increases bob's chances of being a k00k" pattern from the recent thread patterns link: http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/thread_patterns/ http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/thread_patterns/
        Steko 12y ago
        Lol missing context: "Or he's really right and everyone else is wrong."
        tripzilch 12y ago
        On HN I've seen that pattern and sometimes it was a well-respected poster, hammering on something pedantic and off-topic, derailing the thread. Point being, sometimes someone can be right, really knowledgeable and a (thread-localised) k00k. added: then again, there's also something about HN's discussion structure (mainly lack of collapsing comments like Reddit has) that makes these derails get in the way much more than necessary. Reddit even has place for strings of puns without them significantly derailing the discussion.
        micro_cam 12y ago
  - nly 12y ago
    > But if you have a billion dollars of gold in your basement, you should be very, very paranoid. At close to 25 tonnes, and ~1.3m³, I'd like to see the engineering behind such a heist
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Kill occupants of building, move 1.3 cubic meters of gold in 30 trips with transport van. Now you have a few other problems, such as making sure that you're not going to end up in the same way. Besides surveillance cam footage recording your whereabout during part of your trip and the distance being fairly easily estimated if you do two trips in quick succession leading to a possible ID and or location of the stash. But getting it out of there is fairly easy if you lack a conscience and have a van. If you had access to a slightly larger truck it would be easier still.
      - dredwerker 12y ago
        I believe all you need is several mini coopers.
        rmetzler 12y ago
        I understand that reference.
      - joshfraser 12y ago
        Procuring a "slightly larger truck" should be trivial given the value of the heist.
      - alxndr 12y ago
        > getting it out of there is fairly easy if you lack a conscience and have a van new favorite HN quote
    - ctdonath 12y ago
      Someone stole 6 million pounds of maple syrup from Canada's strategic reserves. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-02/the-great-canadian-maple-syrup-heist http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-02/the-great-ca... I'm sure moving a couple cubic meters of gold isn't a problem if you're motivated.
  - copenja 12y ago
    Does this same danger also apply to bitcoin exchanges? Are they heavily guarded? Just wondering...
    - jonknee 12y ago
      Ask Mt. Gox... Typically an exchange will keep most of its BTC in actual bank vaults. Similar to how you'd store a large amount of gold.
      - dobbsbob 12y ago
        They claim they do but there's never been any 3rd party auditing or verification of this that I know of. In the gold business every reliable business has auditing and insurance while so far Bitcoin businesses are run like a regular startup with open offices. Who's cleaning the offices after hours with access to the workstations or servers, who are the hired developers and are they smuggling wallet stealing software inside to transfer to themselves while on a flight to Brazil, who is writing their custom wallet and is it robust, how do we know they didn't copy every address to themselves. Lot's of security questions I've never seen addressed by any of the big exchanges. There was a payment processor startup that posted their office to bitcointalk.org which was floor to ceiling open glass windows with laptops facing the outside. How many binoculars are trained on those laptops across the street to get logins. Some friends of mine trade large amounts of Bitcoin on a regular basis and there's never been much of a delay withdrawing. I doubt they are going to a bank to physically take out printed keys everyday for every transaction over $10,000 or phoning 5 people to combine keys. I bet the backups are kept in a safe deposit box, the cold wallet is likely an offline system anybody can walk up to with some kind of feeble authentication judging by past Bitcoin exchange incompetence. Many of the smaller exchanges are using Blockchain.info wallets as their hot wallet too but won't admit it.
        krapp 12y ago
        >There's never been any 3rd party auditing or verification of this that I know of. I think that's intended to be a feature and not a bug. With Bitcoin 'third party verification' means other people no longer use a service after you've generously sacrificed your money to demonstrate their incompetence or malice.
  - pantaril 12y ago
    >But if you have a billion dollars of gold in your basement, you should be very, very paranoid. If i had so many bitcoins as Satoshi Nakamoto i would certainly not store them in my basement. I'd split my private key using n:m scheme and store them in secure deposit boxes in banks.
    - Anderkent 12y ago
      That doesn't matter much if they can grab you and apply crowbar.
  - donkeyd 12y ago
    If I'd have a billion dollars of worth gold in my Basement I'd be impressed if somebody managed to steal it. Since 1bn USD in gold would weigh 22603KG...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

ghshephard 12y ago
What $500mm are you referring to?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- matznerd 12y ago
  Satoshi mined more than 1 million bitcoins...
dustcoin 12y ago
I haven't heard of a single MtGox creditor that has expressed anger towards Satoshi.
- Bud 12y ago
  If you were really, really angry, and planning to do something about it, would you broadcast that?
  - georgemcbay 12y ago
    If I were rational enough to plan that far ahead, I'd probably be rational enough to realize that the guy who invented bitcoin isn't responsible for anything and everything that happens with it, particularly events to which he has no connection other than having been the inventor. Like if someone steals my expensive Android phone, I'm not going to find Andy Rubin and punch him. Because that ... just wouldn't make any sense.
    - schoen 12y ago
      Surely Edwin Armstrong bears even greater responsibility in light of his invention of the superheterodyne receiver!

6d0debc071 12y ago

> Why is every mention of possible disclosure of Satoshi's identity fraught with heavy overtones of "Your Life Is In Grave Danger"? We have many people who are much richer whose identities are not secret and we don't need to freak out constantly and warn them that They Are In Grave Danger. I think they probably know already. At least if the body guards are anything to go by.

justin66 12y ago

> AFAIK he's not been accused of any crime either. I imagine the IRS really would like to audit him if he's an American citizen, however.

Steko 12y ago
Presumably the Bitcoins were not worth anything when he mined them and he won't owe any capital gains until he sells them.
- justin66 12y ago
  Quite true. Keep in mind, the IRS can audit you out of what amounts to mere curiosity. Having your net worth go up by half a billion or whatever is the sort of thing that might raise some flags and cause someone to want to verify that you haven't realized any of those capital gains, gifted any of them to someone else off the record, or some other thing. On the bright side, Satoshi Nakamoto should be able to afford a good tax attorney. He'd be a bit nutty not to have one already, honestly.
aric 12y ago
The euphemism known as an IRS audit would interfere in his life if an exchange into or out of USD took place. Anyone can attribute value to anything. That doesn't make it valuable. Taxation here would require provable gains or losses, as with USD. The transactions of people exchanging only in [bitcoins, metal, coffee beans, rocks, fancy/worthless paper], not in USD, do not imply that any taxable "gains" or "losses" occurred. If it implied this, there would equally be a lot of losses claimed.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- redblacktree 12y ago
  It might be covered under bartering. http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html