6 ms·

Please let this put an end to the hipchat/slack madness.

by alrs 12y ago

wut42 12y ago
I love IRC but Slack/hipChat has some features IRC can't provide. Especially, the "formatted"/"preview" (images, videos, URL preview, tables) messages. Even if the IRC client supports some of theses features, the protocol is just text, you can't add meta/structured data to a message.
- valarauca1 12y ago
  Circa 1994: Even if the web client supports some of these features the protocol is just text, you can't add meta/structured data to a page. HTTP and TCP are just plane text too. Its what you do with that text that matters. Somebody just has to find a way to shoehorn it in. I'd propose using a basic system built on top of the basic AK meta-protocol for serial communication.
  - wut42 12y ago
    Yeah, sure. So let's add some headers directly in the message! … How do you update all IRC clients to your new spec ? :)
    - acous 12y ago
      There's specs[1] for a third version of the irc protocol that seems to accommodate this. [1] https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/specification/message-tags-3.2.md https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/sp...
- wlesieutre 12y ago
  Along with the image previews, being able to just paste an image into chat (and have it automatically upload to S3) is a huge deal if you're working on anything visual.
  - morganherlocker 12y ago
    Limechat shows image links inline, which is good enough for me anyway. In some ways it is even preferable to tying things to one particular storage solution like s3.
    - avree 12y ago
      You have to upload the image yourself, then. In a workflow, this is a time-waster.
      - mnutt 12y ago
        There's no reason Shout couldn't accept HTML5 copy-and-paste, upload locally or to s3, and the send a link to the uploaded image.
        avree 12y ago
        Which is what Slack does, the ideal use case I was describing. The person I was replying to inquired as to why uploading the image and pasting a link was a problem. He said: "Limechat shows image links inline, which is good enough for me anyway. In some ways it is even preferable to tying things to one particular storage solution like s3."
      - nacs 12y ago
        An IRC bot in the channel could solve this problem easily (grab any image/binary link and mirror to a predefined location).
        wlesieutre 12y ago
        But you have to put the image online somewhere before the IRC bot can mirror it, so I don't see how that helps. Here's how I see the comparison: Hipchat: 1) Paste image Imgur + IRC: 1) New browser tab/window 2) Paste image 3) Click "Start Upload" button 4) Wait for upload + redirect to new page 5) Right click, copy image location 6) Switch back to IRC 7) Paste URL I use this somewhere from 10-100 times a day, so it adds up. And it doesn't interrupt the flow of whatever I'm working on, just a single action that doesn't require any thought or aiming my cursor to click on things. Could I write an automated tool that takes my clipboard, uploads it somewhere, and replaces the clipboard with an image URL? Probably. Or I could use a chat platform that supports images. Edit: Trimmed one step with copy image location instead of actually navigating to the image
- ChiperSoft 12y ago
  Well... You can, you'll just piss off anyone not running your client.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  > I love IRC but Slack/hipChat has some features IRC can't provide. Especially, the "formatted"/"preview" (images, videos, URL preview, tables) messages Those are all features of the client UI, not of the protocol. All can gracefully degrade to plain text for people whose clients don't support them. Image/video/URL preview is an UI feature over plain link. Tables... those you can either send as ASCII-art tables, or upload to whatever paste service you like (or host) and use the same preview mechanism to show a nice table on your rich UI client.
- Franciscouzo 12y ago
  You can actually add metadata to a message, the new ircv3 version lets you do this. https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/specification/message-tags-3.2.md https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/sp...
codezero 12y ago
Hipchat/Slack bring a lot more to the plate than just text chat, I think there is room for a customized IRC system to fill that gap, but it would take a lot, including native apps, notifications and tight control over granular settings, as well as centralized permissions for larger teams.
- rdtsc 12y ago
  It has features but I don't think it is worth it. Inline images are annoying and I don't like that it uses non-standard protocols. I also understand that Hipchat is not open source completely, and if so I don't like that. Notifications are part of a client. Permissions for large teams are nice, that is a useful feature I would like.
  - codezero 12y ago
    Of course, nothing is one size fits all. I doubt slack or hipchat could supplant IRC, and I doubt they would try. I was addressing the parent comment - I think the same goes for IRC, a new interface for IRC doesn't negate the niche filled by Slack and Hipchat.
  - wlesieutre 12y ago
    Maybe HipChat could do with a "Display images in chats" setting then. Some of us use the inline pictures all the time.
ishbits 12y ago
Are HipChat and Slack free enough to use as an open source project chat/support room?
- aroman 12y ago
  Yes, we switched over to Slack from IRC/Google+ at elementary (elementaryos.org) in the early summer. It's been a massive improvement. We're starting to feel the limitations of the free tier though, so we do wish it were a lot cheaper.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Could you enumerate the particular pains you had with IRC that were eased by switching to Slack?
    - sejje 12y ago
      I can't speak for him, however as a programmer speaking to other programmers, I find Slack is pretty nice primarily for these reasons: Pasting code snippets, preserving formatting and getting syntax highlighting. Pasting screenshots, usually of code, error logs, or graphical bugs. Inlining code with `def func_name()` or whatever, making things much more legible. Easily sending files. Basically all code manipulation at their root. For actual normal communication, IRC works just as well for me.
- malditogeek 12y ago
  If you host your source on GitHub, you should definitely check out Gitter. It's free for public repos and the integration is great; you get Markdown, integrations, IRC bridge, etc. Check for example the Marionette community to get a feeling of it: https://gitter.im/marionettejs/backbone.marionette https://gitter.im/marionettejs/backbone.marionette. Disclaimer: I work at Gitter, feel free to ping me at https://gitter.im/malditogeek https://gitter.im/malditogeek
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
Nickoladze 12y ago
My friends and I replaced our IRC server with Slack and just use the IRC gateway to connect to it as if it were an IRC server. Pretty much seamless. On the plus side, the Slack Android app is pretty good. Much better than any IRC app I've used.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
One way to fix that would be to list a set of features that hipchats, et al. have that are desirable, and then think of the way to gracefully degrade them to plain-text format. After that, it's just a matter of implementing few plugins for popular IRC clients that would improve the UI of their respective clients to support those new features. If anyone is going to start such endeavour, I'm willing to put some man-hours (starting next month) into writing plugins for ERC and Weechat.el, and maybe help with others.
- mslev 12y ago
  If I'm understanding correctly, you're talking about a web chat service with a UI that just uses IRC as a backend to communicate between users? If so, that sounds pretty sweet.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    Not really; I was thinking about taking all those Awesome Features IRC Doesn't Have and actually implementing them in various popular IRC clients, web-based or not, in order to make IRC a viable alternative to HipChat, et al. for power users.

Please let this put an end to the hipchat/slack madness.

by alrs 12y ago

Please let this put an end to the hipchat/slack madness.

wut42 12y ago

I love IRC but Slack/hipChat has some features IRC can't provide. Especially, the "formatted"/"preview" (images, videos, URL preview, tables) messages. Even if the IRC client supports some of theses features, the protocol is just text, you can't add meta/structured data to a message.

valarauca1 12y ago
Circa 1994: Even if the web client supports some of these features the protocol is just text, you can't add meta/structured data to a page. HTTP and TCP are just plane text too. Its what you do with that text that matters. Somebody just has to find a way to shoehorn it in. I'd propose using a basic system built on top of the basic AK meta-protocol for serial communication.
- wut42 12y ago
  Yeah, sure. So let's add some headers directly in the message! … How do you update all IRC clients to your new spec ? :)
  - acous 12y ago
    There's specs[1] for a third version of the irc protocol that seems to accommodate this. [1] https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/specification/message-tags-3.2.md https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/sp...
wlesieutre 12y ago
Along with the image previews, being able to just paste an image into chat (and have it automatically upload to S3) is a huge deal if you're working on anything visual.
- morganherlocker 12y ago
  Limechat shows image links inline, which is good enough for me anyway. In some ways it is even preferable to tying things to one particular storage solution like s3.
  - avree 12y ago
    You have to upload the image yourself, then. In a workflow, this is a time-waster.
    - mnutt 12y ago
      There's no reason Shout couldn't accept HTML5 copy-and-paste, upload locally or to s3, and the send a link to the uploaded image.
      - avree 12y ago
        Which is what Slack does, the ideal use case I was describing. The person I was replying to inquired as to why uploading the image and pasting a link was a problem. He said: "Limechat shows image links inline, which is good enough for me anyway. In some ways it is even preferable to tying things to one particular storage solution like s3."
    - nacs 12y ago
      An IRC bot in the channel could solve this problem easily (grab any image/binary link and mirror to a predefined location).
      - wlesieutre 12y ago
        But you have to put the image online somewhere before the IRC bot can mirror it, so I don't see how that helps. Here's how I see the comparison: Hipchat: 1) Paste image Imgur + IRC: 1) New browser tab/window 2) Paste image 3) Click "Start Upload" button 4) Wait for upload + redirect to new page 5) Right click, copy image location 6) Switch back to IRC 7) Paste URL I use this somewhere from 10-100 times a day, so it adds up. And it doesn't interrupt the flow of whatever I'm working on, just a single action that doesn't require any thought or aiming my cursor to click on things. Could I write an automated tool that takes my clipboard, uploads it somewhere, and replaces the clipboard with an image URL? Probably. Or I could use a chat platform that supports images. Edit: Trimmed one step with copy image location instead of actually navigating to the image
ChiperSoft 12y ago
Well... You can, you'll just piss off anyone not running your client.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
> I love IRC but Slack/hipChat has some features IRC can't provide. Especially, the "formatted"/"preview" (images, videos, URL preview, tables) messages Those are all features of the client UI, not of the protocol. All can gracefully degrade to plain text for people whose clients don't support them. Image/video/URL preview is an UI feature over plain link. Tables... those you can either send as ASCII-art tables, or upload to whatever paste service you like (or host) and use the same preview mechanism to show a nice table on your rich UI client.
Franciscouzo 12y ago
You can actually add metadata to a message, the new ircv3 version lets you do this. https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/specification/message-tags-3.2.md https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/blob/master/sp...

codezero 12y ago

Hipchat/Slack bring a lot more to the plate than just text chat, I think there is room for a customized IRC system to fill that gap, but it would take a lot, including native apps, notifications and tight control over granular settings, as well as centralized permissions for larger teams.

rdtsc 12y ago
It has features but I don't think it is worth it. Inline images are annoying and I don't like that it uses non-standard protocols. I also understand that Hipchat is not open source completely, and if so I don't like that. Notifications are part of a client. Permissions for large teams are nice, that is a useful feature I would like.
- codezero 12y ago
  Of course, nothing is one size fits all. I doubt slack or hipchat could supplant IRC, and I doubt they would try. I was addressing the parent comment - I think the same goes for IRC, a new interface for IRC doesn't negate the niche filled by Slack and Hipchat.
- wlesieutre 12y ago
  Maybe HipChat could do with a "Display images in chats" setting then. Some of us use the inline pictures all the time.

ishbits 12y ago

Are HipChat and Slack free enough to use as an open source project chat/support room?

aroman 12y ago
Yes, we switched over to Slack from IRC/Google+ at elementary (elementaryos.org) in the early summer. It's been a massive improvement. We're starting to feel the limitations of the free tier though, so we do wish it were a lot cheaper.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Could you enumerate the particular pains you had with IRC that were eased by switching to Slack?
  - sejje 12y ago
    I can't speak for him, however as a programmer speaking to other programmers, I find Slack is pretty nice primarily for these reasons: Pasting code snippets, preserving formatting and getting syntax highlighting. Pasting screenshots, usually of code, error logs, or graphical bugs. Inlining code with `def func_name()` or whatever, making things much more legible. Easily sending files. Basically all code manipulation at their root. For actual normal communication, IRC works just as well for me.
malditogeek 12y ago
If you host your source on GitHub, you should definitely check out Gitter. It's free for public repos and the integration is great; you get Markdown, integrations, IRC bridge, etc. Check for example the Marionette community to get a feeling of it: https://gitter.im/marionettejs/backbone.marionette https://gitter.im/marionettejs/backbone.marionette. Disclaimer: I work at Gitter, feel free to ping me at https://gitter.im/malditogeek https://gitter.im/malditogeek
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

Nickoladze 12y ago

My friends and I replaced our IRC server with Slack and just use the IRC gateway to connect to it as if it were an IRC server. Pretty much seamless. On the plus side, the Slack Android app is pretty good. Much better than any IRC app I've used.

TeMPOraL 12y ago

One way to fix that would be to list a set of features that hipchats, et al. have that are desirable, and then think of the way to gracefully degrade them to plain-text format. After that, it's just a matter of implementing few plugins for popular IRC clients that would improve the UI of their respective clients to support those new features. If anyone is going to start such endeavour, I'm willing to put some man-hours (starting next month) into writing plugins for ERC and Weechat.el, and maybe help with others.

mslev 12y ago
If I'm understanding correctly, you're talking about a web chat service with a UI that just uses IRC as a backend to communicate between users? If so, that sounds pretty sweet.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Not really; I was thinking about taking all those Awesome Features IRC Doesn't Have and actually implementing them in various popular IRC clients, web-based or not, in order to make IRC a viable alternative to HipChat, et al. for power users.