5 ms·

Yeah, for some people, the advice in this article will lead to disaster. For example, I would rather be reading than doing, all the time. Reading is pure candy

by ellyagg 17y ago

Yeah, for some people, the advice in this article will lead to disaster. For example, I would rather be reading than doing, all the time. Reading is pure candy for me, instant gratification. To become (reasonably) successful, I had to stop reading.

mattm 17y ago
I recall a study where researchers wanted to see how "natural" work was. They took a class of young children and told them they can do whatever they want. So the first day they all ran around outside and had fun. I think by the third day they were all begging to have class again and have some work to do.
- ellyagg 17y ago
  That reminds me of a portion of a letter Ben Franklin wrote to Peter Collinson: "The proneness of human Nature to a life of ease, of freedom from care and labour appear strongly in the heretofore little success that has attended every attempt to civilize our American Indians. . . . They visit us frequently and see the advantages that Arts, Science and compact Society procure us; they are not deficient in natural understanding and yet they have never strewn any inclination to change their manner of life for ours, or to learn any of our Arts. "When an Indian child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and makes one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return. And that this is not natural [only to Indians], but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet within a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of Life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."
  - coffeemug 17y ago
    Is there a published collection of letters you're quoting from? I'd love to read it - what book is this from?
    - ellyagg 17y ago
      I originally read a reference to it in Huck's Raft: A History of American Childhood. Actually, looking it up again made me interested to know if a collection of Franklin's letters has been released in a mainstream volume, too. His Autobiography was awesome.
- unalone 17y ago
  That's the educational theory behind the Summerhill School: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ Some kids that go there spend periods of years doing no work, going to no classes, and aren't punished. The idea is that when the kid is ready to learn, he will learn without provocation.
  - hughprime 17y ago
    Sounds dangerous. When I was a kid, I was already enough of a contrarian that if I'd gone there I probably would have done no work just to prove their silly theory wrong.
    - unalone 17y ago
      That's why it's something like a ten-year school. The idea is that given a decade of freedom, kids will more readily find what they really want.
- Psyonic 17y ago
  I have a friend who graduated from college double majoring in Physics and Economics... and now works maybe 15 hours a week at a grocery store and plays video games most of the time, and this is by choice. Strange conditioning, or living naturally? Oh, and in case you think this is merely a phase, he's been doing this for over a year now.
  - mattm 17y ago
    I think 15-20 hours of work a week is natural. That is the amount the Kung Bushmen have been known to work per week gathering food. The rest of the time is leisure. When at work, I use a timer to time the time spent in actual productive programming. I find that if I start to go over 20 hours of productive work a week, I start to become miserable and my body reacts by bringing on colds or allergies. Perhaps your friend chooses to work at a grocery store because he can't find a job in his field where he would have the opportunity to only work 15 hours.
    - dangrover 17y ago
      I've found the exact same thing. 20 hours of real, actual, focused work seems about right. I average about that: http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg A 25 real-hours-of-work week ends up being a pretty productive and intense one for me. I feel lazy with such a low number, but I bet most office workers do far less.
TY 17y ago
I'm in the same boat - if I don't make myself work, I'll end up reading all the time with zero to show for it. Only one thing makes me deliver: deadline Without deadlines, nothing gets done in my world, as I always get these ideas of how to do something better using the new shiny thing X and there is no end to it. Deadline enforces discipline and requires me to do a good job of planning to allocate the precious time. Makes me say no to pleasant distractions that I would otherwise agree to... Once I have something delivered (or during my consulting work), then I allow myself to go on a "sabbatical": read the books and lurk on HN and LTU. However, the sabbatical must have a scheduled end-date too, otherwise nothing will ever get done. Deadlines must be concrete. Here are mine: my current sabbatical ends in 2 weeks (coincides with the end of my consulting engagement and loss of golden handcuffs http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743). Real work starts on October 4 with a clear deliverable by October 23...
- indigoshift 17y ago
  I'm in the same boat. The deadline is everything. I structure my life around my deadlines, and the closer I get to the deadline, the more everything else ends up playing second fiddle to it. I'm an illustrator, though, not a programmer. But it's nice to be able to tell new clients that I haven't missed a deadline in 15 years. No illness or injury or real-life event can change that. I used to feel guilty for sometimes waiting till the last minute to finish a job, until I watched a documentary about Frank Frazetta. He would get a new painting project and wait till the night before the deadline before even starting on it. He'd stay up all night and get it done on time, then go back to what he was doing--which was usually baseball or (as he got older) golf. :)
hyperbovine 17y ago
Sounds like you have a future in literary criticism then. Seriously. The whole point of the post is "don't fight it," and I for one agree.
- ellyagg 17y ago
  Heh. I don't think so. I'd rather be having sex than doing, too, but I'm not buying a bus ticket to San Fernando Valley.

by ellyagg 17y ago

mattm 17y ago

I recall a study where researchers wanted to see how "natural" work was. They took a class of young children and told them they can do whatever they want. So the first day they all ran around outside and had fun. I think by the third day they were all begging to have class again and have some work to do.

ellyagg 17y ago
That reminds me of a portion of a letter Ben Franklin wrote to Peter Collinson: "The proneness of human Nature to a life of ease, of freedom from care and labour appear strongly in the heretofore little success that has attended every attempt to civilize our American Indians. . . . They visit us frequently and see the advantages that Arts, Science and compact Society procure us; they are not deficient in natural understanding and yet they have never strewn any inclination to change their manner of life for ours, or to learn any of our Arts. "When an Indian child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and makes one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return. And that this is not natural [only to Indians], but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived awhile among them, tho' ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet within a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of Life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."
- coffeemug 17y ago
  Is there a published collection of letters you're quoting from? I'd love to read it - what book is this from?
  - ellyagg 17y ago
    I originally read a reference to it in Huck's Raft: A History of American Childhood. Actually, looking it up again made me interested to know if a collection of Franklin's letters has been released in a mainstream volume, too. His Autobiography was awesome.
unalone 17y ago
That's the educational theory behind the Summerhill School: http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ Some kids that go there spend periods of years doing no work, going to no classes, and aren't punished. The idea is that when the kid is ready to learn, he will learn without provocation.
- hughprime 17y ago
  Sounds dangerous. When I was a kid, I was already enough of a contrarian that if I'd gone there I probably would have done no work just to prove their silly theory wrong.
  - unalone 17y ago
    That's why it's something like a ten-year school. The idea is that given a decade of freedom, kids will more readily find what they really want.
Psyonic 17y ago
I have a friend who graduated from college double majoring in Physics and Economics... and now works maybe 15 hours a week at a grocery store and plays video games most of the time, and this is by choice. Strange conditioning, or living naturally? Oh, and in case you think this is merely a phase, he's been doing this for over a year now.
- mattm 17y ago
  I think 15-20 hours of work a week is natural. That is the amount the Kung Bushmen have been known to work per week gathering food. The rest of the time is leisure. When at work, I use a timer to time the time spent in actual productive programming. I find that if I start to go over 20 hours of productive work a week, I start to become miserable and my body reacts by bringing on colds or allergies. Perhaps your friend chooses to work at a grocery store because he can't find a job in his field where he would have the opportunity to only work 15 hours.
  - dangrover 17y ago
    I've found the exact same thing. 20 hours of real, actual, focused work seems about right. I average about that: http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg http://files.dangrover.com/timechart081909.jpg A 25 real-hours-of-work week ends up being a pretty productive and intense one for me. I feel lazy with such a low number, but I bet most office workers do far less.

TY 17y ago

I'm in the same boat - if I don't make myself work, I'll end up reading all the time with zero to show for it. Only one thing makes me deliver: deadline Without deadlines, nothing gets done in my world, as I always get these ideas of how to do something better using the new shiny thing X and there is no end to it. Deadline enforces discipline and requires me to do a good job of planning to allocate the precious time. Makes me say no to pleasant distractions that I would otherwise agree to... Once I have something delivered (or during my consulting work), then I allow myself to go on a "sabbatical": read the books and lurk on HN and LTU. However, the sabbatical must have a scheduled end-date too, otherwise nothing will ever get done. Deadlines must be concrete. Here are mine: my current sabbatical ends in 2 weeks (coincides with the end of my consulting engagement and loss of golden handcuffs http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=763743). Real work starts on October 4 with a clear deliverable by October 23...

indigoshift 17y ago
I'm in the same boat. The deadline is everything. I structure my life around my deadlines, and the closer I get to the deadline, the more everything else ends up playing second fiddle to it. I'm an illustrator, though, not a programmer. But it's nice to be able to tell new clients that I haven't missed a deadline in 15 years. No illness or injury or real-life event can change that. I used to feel guilty for sometimes waiting till the last minute to finish a job, until I watched a documentary about Frank Frazetta. He would get a new painting project and wait till the night before the deadline before even starting on it. He'd stay up all night and get it done on time, then go back to what he was doing--which was usually baseball or (as he got older) golf. :)

hyperbovine 17y ago

Sounds like you have a future in literary criticism then. Seriously. The whole point of the post is "don't fight it," and I for one agree.

ellyagg 17y ago
Heh. I don't think so. I'd rather be having sex than doing, too, but I'm not buying a bus ticket to San Fernando Valley.