5 ms·

I seriously don't understand the "I hate Java" meme. My job and hobby languages are all JVM, front-end notwithstanding, but I cannot get a firm grasp on where t

by 67726e 12y ago

I seriously don't understand the "I hate Java" meme. My job and hobby languages are all JVM, front-end notwithstanding, but I cannot get a firm grasp on where the hate is coming from. This is about as sensible as me saying "I hate Python" or "I hate Ruby" so I will avoid installing it on my machine. It's just a language and a runtime. If you don't like writing it or working in it, then sure, we all have opinions on what makes a language good. Not wanting to install a piece of software because it runs applications written in that language just strikes me as a bit silly. Maybe I just have Stockholm Syndrome after all of these years.

gchp 12y ago
I don't hate Java. I have no experience in using it as a language, so I'm not qualified to comment in that regard. My point is that I would rather not have to install it simply to use this tool. Its like having to install Ruby simply because these a single Gem that you want to install and there is no other way to go about it, even if you never use Ruby for any other purpose. More of an annoyance than anything else.
- sbarre 12y ago
  Think of it this way: If there weren't licensing issues, they would probably just package it into the IDE distro, and you'd still be "installing" it on your system, you just wouldn't know about it.. :-)
markokrajnc 12y ago
You can't understand this. It is emotional... ;-)
jre 12y ago
A lot of early days Java apps built with Swing were slow and ugly. I think that's where a lot of the "java is slow" stories come from. Of course, Jetbrains' products are a proof that you can use Java to build modern apps that are pretty good.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  > A lot of early days Java apps built with Swing were slow and ugly. Specially because most developers couldn't bother to write proper Swing code, or reading blogs like "Filthy rich clients".
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    Indeed, one of my proudest projects was written with Swing using a better LAF and custom widgets. I'm primarily a web developer at present, prefer Ruby or C over Java, and would rather build GUIs in Qt, but I don't mind Swing.
- jbverschoor 12y ago
  Actually the jetbrains UI is pretty bad on osx.
burstmode 12y ago
Why so many people hate Java ? Let's start with the fact that it installs an auto-update system that tries everthing it can to trick you into installing adware (ask-bar).
- aardvark179 12y ago
  Install the JDK, no auto-update guff, and extra useful tools as well.
  - Sindisil 12y ago
    Or just install the JRE, but from the developer download site (same place you download the JDK).
- eropple 12y ago
  This does not happen on either OS X or Linux. I'm reasonably sure it doesn't happen on Windows with the JDK, either.
- MarkyC4 12y ago
  in addition to aardvark179's tip of installing the JDK to not get the sponsor message, there's also a well hidden option in Java's Control Panel to prevent them from asking you to install the sponsor: http://i.imgur.com/buSi4lx.png http://i.imgur.com/buSi4lx.png
  - AjithAntony 12y ago
    What version are you using? I don't have that option in 1.7.0_60
  - Aldo_MX 12y ago
    Thank you sir! You took a load off me.
epidemian 12y ago
For me at least the main annoyance of using Java-based tools are issues like these: http://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-57233 http://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-57233 . Had to install a non-official patched JVM to get the fonts to look decent, when all the other applications on the system render fonts just fine.
- 67726e 12y ago
  To pick on Java is my point of contention. Every runtime has warts, If I did some digging I could find issues with any other environment. It just seems like folks pick on Java disproportionately. That might just be the HN echo chamber, but I don't see too many folks bitching about any other non-native runtime.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- dnesteruk 12y ago
  Regrettably, fact of the matter is that fonts look bad on Java, particularly on Windows where Java-enabled programs are unable (for whatever reason) to leverage ClearType and thus get the antialiasing done just right.
- shock 12y ago
  That's exactly the reason I don't use Jetbrains' products (font rendering looks like crap in them on Linux) and stick with Eclipse. I installed the non-official patched JVM to get the font rendering to look good but I'm not going to depend on a product that requires me to tweak the JVM just to make the product look good. My ability to tweak the JVM might go away at any point since I can only patch OpenJDK and Jetbrains recommends the Oracle JDK. Then what? Suck it up and look at the ugly fonts? No, thanks! I'd rather use apps that use SWT and render fonts natively. The couple of Swing apps I use are open source and if I'm sufficiently motivated to continue using them I can port them to SWT or find some other compromise. I wish more people would feel the same, then, maybe, Jetbrains would find a solution, but ,alas, it seems too few people care for Jetbrains to take notice.
giancarlostoro 12y ago
I don't hate Java. I hate the Java installer, and the update manager. I was hacked maybe a year or two ago browsing a normal website, it was Java. Java installs itself into your browser and makes you vulnerable to every web page you visit (edit: during an open window for exploitation in an outdated Java plugin). In reality, I now uninstall Java on my browser and to this day I have not been to a website that requires it, other than shady pop ups and shady websites. There's also the update manager, I don't know why but Java feels the need to update every other day or week, and then on top of annoying you by prompting a UAC (yes I know I can disable these) they add a toolbar into every update / install process, sometimes you just miss those check boxes and then all of a sudden you have toolbar hell. I love Java, I hate the installer and the updater. I also hate the JDK itself, it's a horrible mess, try switching to C# for a year, then go back to Java. You'll hate it. I still love the capabilities of Java, but it needs a overhaul on a lot of things.
- aw3c2 12y ago
  That's Windows specific, I understand the frustation and I am sorry you have to live with that. Every time I boot back into Windows I get harassed by updates and reboots. I don't miss it.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    Funny, my Ubuntu box shows an update dialog almost every day.
    - nitrogen 12y ago
      The Ubuntu update dialog is unified and has zero risk of tricking less savvy users into installing spyware. I'm sure you've seen Windows machines with five different updaters popping up at boot, competing for attention (e.g. Flash, Java, Apple, MS Update, MS security alerts, etc.)
      - pjmlp 12y ago
        Your point was being harassed by updates. As for spyware, oh it is so easy to convince Joe user to install it, even on UNIX systems. Social engineering makes wonders.
jo_ 12y ago
People who aren't Java developers hate it because the JRE install is irritating as FUCK. The JDK is smooth sailing. Install, add JAVA_HOME, done. The JRE, on the other hand, pesters people to update once a week, adds a little tray icon, and installs the ASK toolbar by default. I'd always used the JDK, so I never noticed how gross it was until I installed the JRE for someone. "This looks really different. Oh man it's asking you to auto-update. That's frustrating."
- donniezazen 12y ago
  rpm -ivh jdk-<version>-linux-x64.rpm ~/.bashrc export JAVA_HOME=/usr/java/default/ export PATH=$JAVA_HOME/bin:$PATH Was that hard?
  - 67726e 12y ago
    What about Windows?
    - papercrane 12y ago
      For Windows the JRE is bundled with all of the JetBrains products.
      - Sindisil 12y ago
        Really! Cool - I was not aware of that (only using them under Linux).
  - reitanqild 12y ago
    It is not hard once you know. Finding out is one more thing. One more poorly documented thing at that I think.
    - donniezazen 12y ago
      Google is your friend. That is how I learned. I wasn't born with this knowledge.
rayiner 12y ago
Part of my problem with Java tools is that I'm always on a laptop, often running on battery, and it seems like every single Java-based program on OS X just sits around using 3-5% of the CPU even when idle.
- burstmode 12y ago
  Well, that comes from the Garbage Collector, cleaning after all the programmers to lazy think about resource usage. But hey, never mention this when together with Java-developers, because saying something critical about garbage collection ist almost as bad as denying global warming.
  - eklavya 12y ago
    What? I may be wrong but I get a macho vibe from your comment. Men handle memory themselves. Wise men choose the best tool and sometimes not having to bother too much about memory handling frees up a lot of mental bandwidth to deal with much bigger problems.
  - harryh 12y ago
    Java programmers aren't too lazy to think about resource usage. They have just chosen to devote their intellectual resources to solving problems on a larger scale than memory management. This is a perfectly appropriate decision for a very large number of problem domains. This is what good tools allow people to do.
jheriko 12y ago
i don't hate it but i understand that it adds one too many steps. my code works on every platform actually out of the box. no installs necessary. i consider that important so i just can't use JVM in general unless i sacrifice that... i usually get disbelief until it is seen, but all of my large non trivial projects build out of the box in one step and run with one click. i really value that. that being said, all my android projects use a JVM in the end. :)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rsynnott 12y ago
The JRE is a really bad citizen on Windows, I gather. At least at some point, it actually shipped with toolbars! MacOS and Linux users don't have to deal with this.

by 67726e 12y ago

gchp 12y ago

I don't hate Java. I have no experience in using it as a language, so I'm not qualified to comment in that regard. My point is that I would rather not have to install it simply to use this tool. Its like having to install Ruby simply because these a single Gem that you want to install and there is no other way to go about it, even if you never use Ruby for any other purpose. More of an annoyance than anything else.

sbarre 12y ago
Think of it this way: If there weren't licensing issues, they would probably just package it into the IDE distro, and you'd still be "installing" it on your system, you just wouldn't know about it.. :-)

markokrajnc 12y ago

You can't understand this. It is emotional... ;-)

jre 12y ago

A lot of early days Java apps built with Swing were slow and ugly. I think that's where a lot of the "java is slow" stories come from. Of course, Jetbrains' products are a proof that you can use Java to build modern apps that are pretty good.

pjmlp 12y ago
> A lot of early days Java apps built with Swing were slow and ugly. Specially because most developers couldn't bother to write proper Swing code, or reading blogs like "Filthy rich clients".
- nitrogen 12y ago
  Indeed, one of my proudest projects was written with Swing using a better LAF and custom widgets. I'm primarily a web developer at present, prefer Ruby or C over Java, and would rather build GUIs in Qt, but I don't mind Swing.
jbverschoor 12y ago
Actually the jetbrains UI is pretty bad on osx.

burstmode 12y ago

Why so many people hate Java ? Let's start with the fact that it installs an auto-update system that tries everthing it can to trick you into installing adware (ask-bar).

aardvark179 12y ago
Install the JDK, no auto-update guff, and extra useful tools as well.
- Sindisil 12y ago
  Or just install the JRE, but from the developer download site (same place you download the JDK).
eropple 12y ago
This does not happen on either OS X or Linux. I'm reasonably sure it doesn't happen on Windows with the JDK, either.
MarkyC4 12y ago
in addition to aardvark179's tip of installing the JDK to not get the sponsor message, there's also a well hidden option in Java's Control Panel to prevent them from asking you to install the sponsor: http://i.imgur.com/buSi4lx.png http://i.imgur.com/buSi4lx.png
- AjithAntony 12y ago
  What version are you using? I don't have that option in 1.7.0_60
- Aldo_MX 12y ago
  Thank you sir! You took a load off me.

epidemian 12y ago

For me at least the main annoyance of using Java-based tools are issues like these: http://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-57233 http://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-57233 . Had to install a non-official patched JVM to get the fonts to look decent, when all the other applications on the system render fonts just fine.

67726e 12y ago
To pick on Java is my point of contention. Every runtime has warts, If I did some digging I could find issues with any other environment. It just seems like folks pick on Java disproportionately. That might just be the HN echo chamber, but I don't see too many folks bitching about any other non-native runtime.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
dnesteruk 12y ago
Regrettably, fact of the matter is that fonts look bad on Java, particularly on Windows where Java-enabled programs are unable (for whatever reason) to leverage ClearType and thus get the antialiasing done just right.
shock 12y ago
That's exactly the reason I don't use Jetbrains' products (font rendering looks like crap in them on Linux) and stick with Eclipse. I installed the non-official patched JVM to get the font rendering to look good but I'm not going to depend on a product that requires me to tweak the JVM just to make the product look good. My ability to tweak the JVM might go away at any point since I can only patch OpenJDK and Jetbrains recommends the Oracle JDK. Then what? Suck it up and look at the ugly fonts? No, thanks! I'd rather use apps that use SWT and render fonts natively. The couple of Swing apps I use are open source and if I'm sufficiently motivated to continue using them I can port them to SWT or find some other compromise. I wish more people would feel the same, then, maybe, Jetbrains would find a solution, but ,alas, it seems too few people care for Jetbrains to take notice.

giancarlostoro 12y ago

I don't hate Java. I hate the Java installer, and the update manager. I was hacked maybe a year or two ago browsing a normal website, it was Java. Java installs itself into your browser and makes you vulnerable to every web page you visit (edit: during an open window for exploitation in an outdated Java plugin). In reality, I now uninstall Java on my browser and to this day I have not been to a website that requires it, other than shady pop ups and shady websites. There's also the update manager, I don't know why but Java feels the need to update every other day or week, and then on top of annoying you by prompting a UAC (yes I know I can disable these) they add a toolbar into every update / install process, sometimes you just miss those check boxes and then all of a sudden you have toolbar hell. I love Java, I hate the installer and the updater. I also hate the JDK itself, it's a horrible mess, try switching to C# for a year, then go back to Java. You'll hate it. I still love the capabilities of Java, but it needs a overhaul on a lot of things.

aw3c2 12y ago
That's Windows specific, I understand the frustation and I am sorry you have to live with that. Every time I boot back into Windows I get harassed by updates and reboots. I don't miss it.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  Funny, my Ubuntu box shows an update dialog almost every day.
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    The Ubuntu update dialog is unified and has zero risk of tricking less savvy users into installing spyware. I'm sure you've seen Windows machines with five different updaters popping up at boot, competing for attention (e.g. Flash, Java, Apple, MS Update, MS security alerts, etc.)
    - pjmlp 12y ago
      Your point was being harassed by updates. As for spyware, oh it is so easy to convince Joe user to install it, even on UNIX systems. Social engineering makes wonders.

jo_ 12y ago

People who aren't Java developers hate it because the JRE install is irritating as FUCK. The JDK is smooth sailing. Install, add JAVA_HOME, done. The JRE, on the other hand, pesters people to update once a week, adds a little tray icon, and installs the ASK toolbar by default. I'd always used the JDK, so I never noticed how gross it was until I installed the JRE for someone. "This looks really different. Oh man it's asking you to auto-update. That's frustrating."

donniezazen 12y ago
rpm -ivh jdk-<version>-linux-x64.rpm ~/.bashrc export JAVA_HOME=/usr/java/default/ export PATH=$JAVA_HOME/bin:$PATH Was that hard?
- 67726e 12y ago
  What about Windows?
  - papercrane 12y ago
    For Windows the JRE is bundled with all of the JetBrains products.
    - Sindisil 12y ago
      Really! Cool - I was not aware of that (only using them under Linux).
- reitanqild 12y ago
  It is not hard once you know. Finding out is one more thing. One more poorly documented thing at that I think.
  - donniezazen 12y ago
    Google is your friend. That is how I learned. I wasn't born with this knowledge.

rayiner 12y ago

Part of my problem with Java tools is that I'm always on a laptop, often running on battery, and it seems like every single Java-based program on OS X just sits around using 3-5% of the CPU even when idle.

burstmode 12y ago
Well, that comes from the Garbage Collector, cleaning after all the programmers to lazy think about resource usage. But hey, never mention this when together with Java-developers, because saying something critical about garbage collection ist almost as bad as denying global warming.
- eklavya 12y ago
  What? I may be wrong but I get a macho vibe from your comment. Men handle memory themselves. Wise men choose the best tool and sometimes not having to bother too much about memory handling frees up a lot of mental bandwidth to deal with much bigger problems.
- harryh 12y ago
  Java programmers aren't too lazy to think about resource usage. They have just chosen to devote their intellectual resources to solving problems on a larger scale than memory management. This is a perfectly appropriate decision for a very large number of problem domains. This is what good tools allow people to do.

jheriko 12y ago

i don't hate it but i understand that it adds one too many steps. my code works on every platform actually out of the box. no installs necessary. i consider that important so i just can't use JVM in general unless i sacrifice that... i usually get disbelief until it is seen, but all of my large non trivial projects build out of the box in one step and run with one click. i really value that. that being said, all my android projects use a JVM in the end. :)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rsynnott 12y ago

The JRE is a really bad citizen on Windows, I gather. At least at some point, it actually shipped with toolbars! MacOS and Linux users don't have to deal with this.