6 ms·

Standard Markdown is now CommonMark

48 points by anonfunction 12y ago

gojomo 12y ago
How about Bharkdown, where ARK = "Apple Rumor King"? (cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation#Libel_dispute_with_Carl_Sagan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation#Libel_di...)
neon_electro 12y ago
Is there anywhere to file a pull request for the commonmark.org website? The "Discuss" button still links to talk.standardmarkdown.com.
- sehr 12y ago
  That's still the main discussion area for this project
  - sejje 12y ago
    Atwood said he'd shut it down (point 3, near the end): http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common...
    - codinghorror 12y ago
      This (discussion area) is the hardest bit to change, the rest of the domain is shut down. Will happen soon.
dmishe 12y ago
"naming things and cache invalidation"
nvk 12y ago
Needs either "Markdown" in it or go away with something completely different. This is confusing and the worst of the name choices. Edit: Suggestion: BetterGruber
- sejje 12y ago
  They were denied (by Gruber) the choice to use anything with "Markdown" in the title. EDIT: source: http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common...
  - nvk 12y ago
    Fuck Gruber they should go with something totally different and Markdown will be forgotten. Win.
    - dmishe 12y ago
      1. The guy invented it, like or not, he can do whatever he wants with it. 2. He actually said that he would like them to go with some new name and see if it takes off, which I think is fair and I don't get the whole fucking drama. Just come up with a name.
      - nvk 12y ago
        2. How about "DeGrub", could even be used as a verb...
        boredprogrammer 12y ago
        Or ReGrub - which has the awesome advantage(?) of being "burger" backwards ...
kevinqi 12y ago
Are they no longer able to have "markdown" in the name? The name isn't rubygems-bad, but it's not exactly intuitive.
- 2muchcoffeeman 12y ago
  The original license says: Neither the name “Markdown” nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license The name change may have been done as a courtesy rather than for legal reasons, but apparently Gruber doesn't wish to endorse any forks. There was even a kerfuffle on Twitter.
  - eslaught 12y ago
    This must have been done out of politeness and not out of legal reasons. I don't think Gruber has any legal foothold with respect to the name here. The license you quote is essentially based on copyright. But copyright deals with creative works, not names; names are the domain of trademark. In the US at least, copyright is automatic; trademarks are not. You must explicitly register trademarks in order to have any legal enforcement power over a name. Has Gruber registered for trademark in the US? I kind of doubt it. I am not a lawyer, but this smells like something he just wrote in the contract because he could, not because it actually can be enforced as such. (Note: This is separate from the discussion of whether it was polite for them to use the name Markdown. I generally agree that it is more polite for this project to distance themselves from the original markdown given that Gruber doesn't want to work with them.)
    - dogecoinbase 12y ago
      Incorrect -- there is a doctrine of common law trademark: http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426712 http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426712
      - 12y ago
bla2 12y ago
I kind of hope that Mark Pilgrim (of diveintomark.com fame of days past) now complains that this dilutes his brand.
x0x0 12y ago
wonder what new tantrum from gruber brought this on
- maxerickson 12y ago
  An addendum to this post: http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common... Edit: after a long and thoughtful email from John Gruber – which is greatly appreciated – he indicated that no form of the word "Markdown" is acceptable to him in this case. We are now using the name CommonMark. It doesn't sound sarcastic to me.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    how was I being sarcastic? Gruber could have skipped the butthurt party by replying to an email sent by the standard markdown team, instead of ignoring them for weeks. He refused communications, reading them to read tea leaves and guess what he might want. Like I said, tantrum. It's behavior expected from a child.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      I wasn't talking about anything you wrote, Atwood's post does not sound sarcastic to me. He calls the email leading to the newest name "long and thoughtful". That doesn't sound like a tantrum.
      - snogglethorpe 12y ago
        The obvious suspicion is that Atwood was merely being diplomatic when he described Gruber's email in those words...
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
ChristianBundy 12y ago
Intellectual property strikes again.
lazyloop 12y ago
There seems to be a lot of hostility from both sides now. "Are the Yankees the best team in baseball? We used to think so."
- ejr 12y ago
  I understand that hackers tend to be irascible often, especially online, but parting shots like these are in very poor form. Consideration and goodwill tend be diminished when you can't be graceful no matter what the other party said. Especially considering that other party was originally the impetus for this in the first place.
  - awesomerobot 12y ago
    You also have to consider the other party was subtweeting all day and calling people dicknoses.
- codinghorror 12y ago
  This is in reference to Twitter comments from 2 years ago jokingly suggesting that based on the chilly reception from Gruber to any kind of reduction in ambiguity in Markdown's so-called spec... the name "YankeesSuck" could be used instead.
walterbell 12y ago
Was CommonMarkup considered?
- ejr 12y ago
  This comment should be higher. CommonMarkup gets rid of the naming hiccup by having no direct ties to the original spec except syntax, which is arguably a dialect anyway. Atwood gets to have One Syntax to Rule Them All - I sincerely doubt Atwood wanted Yet Another Markdown as he said - and the community benefits from having the syntax ambiguity resolved by comprehensive reform.
  - gojomo 12y ago
    'Markright' (adopting another direction other than 'up' or 'down) or 'Markwrite' (implying natural-language composition) would have been other interesting choices. Or even 'Markround' (completed/balanced like a circle). Each is closer in spirit to the original – a "mark-up" with a different spin for ease or correctness – and close enough in sound/rhythm for drop-in replacement use. And, each is still different enough to avoid any unearned implication of official Gruber-ness.
kristopher 12y ago
I think that it would be appropriate to simply forget the "Mark" parlance and Gruber all together. Everyone understands there is a Markdown ecosystem, but quite frankly this is the start of something new. End-users also need an easy to follow name and site to learn the syntax. I like the names SmartText or SimpleFormat or even perhaps CommonMarkup.
- codinghorror 12y ago
  It isn't something new, it is a strongly specified, highly compatible implementation of Markdown. As seen in "common" use on large websites. And any implementation that passes the current spec tests can also brand itself with CommonMark or "Markdown compatible".
  - kristopher 12y ago
    Mr. Atwood, you may be too kind. I see this as a chance to bring Markdown to a larger audience by not only standardizing it, but also renaming it as well. In this endeavor it would appear that you are giving too much credit to Gruber. It is unfortunate that he was not one to be more gracious in the matter.
Shad0w59 12y ago
I find this whole saga hilarious.

48 points by anonfunction 12y ago

How about Bharkdown, where ARK = "Apple Rumor King"? (cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation#Libel_dispute_with_Carl_Sagan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._litigation#Libel_di...)

neon_electro 12y ago

Is there anywhere to file a pull request for the commonmark.org website? The "Discuss" button still links to talk.standardmarkdown.com.

sehr 12y ago
That's still the main discussion area for this project
- sejje 12y ago
  Atwood said he'd shut it down (point 3, near the end): http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common...
  - codinghorror 12y ago
    This (discussion area) is the hardest bit to change, the rest of the domain is shut down. Will happen soon.

dmishe 12y ago

"naming things and cache invalidation"

nvk 12y ago

Needs either "Markdown" in it or go away with something completely different. This is confusing and the worst of the name choices. Edit: Suggestion: BetterGruber

sejje 12y ago
They were denied (by Gruber) the choice to use anything with "Markdown" in the title. EDIT: source: http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common...
- nvk 12y ago
  Fuck Gruber they should go with something totally different and Markdown will be forgotten. Win.
  - dmishe 12y ago
    1. The guy invented it, like or not, he can do whatever he wants with it. 2. He actually said that he would like them to go with some new name and see if it takes off, which I think is fair and I don't get the whole fucking drama. Just come up with a name.
    - nvk 12y ago
      2. How about "DeGrub", could even be used as a verb...
      - boredprogrammer 12y ago
        Or ReGrub - which has the awesome advantage(?) of being "burger" backwards ...

kevinqi 12y ago

Are they no longer able to have "markdown" in the name? The name isn't rubygems-bad, but it's not exactly intuitive.

2muchcoffeeman 12y ago
The original license says: Neither the name “Markdown” nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license The name change may have been done as a courtesy rather than for legal reasons, but apparently Gruber doesn't wish to endorse any forks. There was even a kerfuffle on Twitter.
- eslaught 12y ago
  This must have been done out of politeness and not out of legal reasons. I don't think Gruber has any legal foothold with respect to the name here. The license you quote is essentially based on copyright. But copyright deals with creative works, not names; names are the domain of trademark. In the US at least, copyright is automatic; trademarks are not. You must explicitly register trademarks in order to have any legal enforcement power over a name. Has Gruber registered for trademark in the US? I kind of doubt it. I am not a lawyer, but this smells like something he just wrote in the contract because he could, not because it actually can be enforced as such. (Note: This is separate from the discussion of whether it was polite for them to use the name Markdown. I generally agree that it is more polite for this project to distance themselves from the original markdown given that Gruber doesn't want to work with them.)
  - dogecoinbase 12y ago
    Incorrect -- there is a doctrine of common law trademark: http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426712 http://www.uspto.gov/faq/trademarks.jsp#_Toc275426712
    - 12y ago

bla2 12y ago

I kind of hope that Mark Pilgrim (of diveintomark.com fame of days past) now complains that this dilutes his brand.

x0x0 12y ago

wonder what new tantrum from gruber brought this on

maxerickson 12y ago
An addendum to this post: http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-markdown-is-now-common... Edit: after a long and thoughtful email from John Gruber – which is greatly appreciated – he indicated that no form of the word "Markdown" is acceptable to him in this case. We are now using the name CommonMark. It doesn't sound sarcastic to me.
- x0x0 12y ago
  how was I being sarcastic? Gruber could have skipped the butthurt party by replying to an email sent by the standard markdown team, instead of ignoring them for weeks. He refused communications, reading them to read tea leaves and guess what he might want. Like I said, tantrum. It's behavior expected from a child.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    I wasn't talking about anything you wrote, Atwood's post does not sound sarcastic to me. He calls the email leading to the newest name "long and thoughtful". That doesn't sound like a tantrum.
    - snogglethorpe 12y ago
      The obvious suspicion is that Atwood was merely being diplomatic when he described Gruber's email in those words...
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

ChristianBundy 12y ago

Intellectual property strikes again.

lazyloop 12y ago

There seems to be a lot of hostility from both sides now. "Are the Yankees the best team in baseball? We used to think so."

ejr 12y ago
I understand that hackers tend to be irascible often, especially online, but parting shots like these are in very poor form. Consideration and goodwill tend be diminished when you can't be graceful no matter what the other party said. Especially considering that other party was originally the impetus for this in the first place.
- awesomerobot 12y ago
  You also have to consider the other party was subtweeting all day and calling people dicknoses.
codinghorror 12y ago
This is in reference to Twitter comments from 2 years ago jokingly suggesting that based on the chilly reception from Gruber to any kind of reduction in ambiguity in Markdown's so-called spec... the name "YankeesSuck" could be used instead.

walterbell 12y ago

Was CommonMarkup considered?

ejr 12y ago
This comment should be higher. CommonMarkup gets rid of the naming hiccup by having no direct ties to the original spec except syntax, which is arguably a dialect anyway. Atwood gets to have One Syntax to Rule Them All - I sincerely doubt Atwood wanted Yet Another Markdown as he said - and the community benefits from having the syntax ambiguity resolved by comprehensive reform.
- gojomo 12y ago
  'Markright' (adopting another direction other than 'up' or 'down) or 'Markwrite' (implying natural-language composition) would have been other interesting choices. Or even 'Markround' (completed/balanced like a circle). Each is closer in spirit to the original – a "mark-up" with a different spin for ease or correctness – and close enough in sound/rhythm for drop-in replacement use. And, each is still different enough to avoid any unearned implication of official Gruber-ness.

kristopher 12y ago

I think that it would be appropriate to simply forget the "Mark" parlance and Gruber all together. Everyone understands there is a Markdown ecosystem, but quite frankly this is the start of something new. End-users also need an easy to follow name and site to learn the syntax. I like the names SmartText or SimpleFormat or even perhaps CommonMarkup.

codinghorror 12y ago
It isn't something new, it is a strongly specified, highly compatible implementation of Markdown. As seen in "common" use on large websites. And any implementation that passes the current spec tests can also brand itself with CommonMark or "Markdown compatible".
- kristopher 12y ago
  Mr. Atwood, you may be too kind. I see this as a chance to bring Markdown to a larger audience by not only standardizing it, but also renaming it as well. In this endeavor it would appear that you are giving too much credit to Gruber. It is unfortunate that he was not one to be more gracious in the matter.

Shad0w59 12y ago

I find this whole saga hilarious.