6 ms·

I remember learning all about Al Jazari (and all of the other Muslim scientists, philosophers and doctors at that time) back in primary school. As an Arab I can

by KhalilK 12y ago

I remember learning all about Al Jazari (and all of the other Muslim scientists, philosophers and doctors at that time) back in primary school. As an Arab I can't help but feel both proud, of such achievements, and yet so sad, because of the state of decline the Islamic contribution to the scientific advancement has known.

rikacomet 12y ago
my brother, that is a bit out of context. Don't be sad about it. Success passes on to those, who work hard for the greater cause. One should have rivals, but no enemies ;)
nayefc 12y ago
Once we replace "Islamic contribution" with "Arab contribution", we will move forward.
- vdfs 12y ago
  That is not true. Can you give me the name of a scientist before Islam?
  - tidderton 12y ago
    You know what, it is. Also, Mohammad was a misogynist pedophile warlord. Ideas from medieval ages have no place in the 21st century. (Down-votes from PC folks welcome)
    - quinnchr 12y ago
      I'm pretty sure we still find plenty of use in the ideas much older than that... Do we not still teach the ideas of Pythagoras et al? I'm pretty sure what you're trying to say is religion has no place in the 21st century. Also fun fact, the early days of Islam saw huge steps forward for women's rights, more so than pretty much any other culture at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism#Early_reforms_under_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism#Early_reforms_...). I'm curious why you Mohammed was a misogynist and what that has to do with Islam?
    - zyngaro 12y ago
      What a hateful comment. How can one judge a man who lived in the 7th century by today's standards?! Objectively speaking, a warlord he might have been but a misogynist and a pedophile surely he wasn't.
      - tidderton 12y ago
        Because he is the perfect example to follow for all humans according to Muslims? He definitely was a misogynist and a pedophile according to Islamic texts. Would you like some links?
        dang 12y ago
        Please stop.
        nayefc 12y ago
        So was every single religious figure..
        selimthegrim 12y ago
        I await your similar frenzied expose of Richard the Lionheart with bated breath....
    - lotharbot 12y ago
      "Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you." "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (Interesting that your only other comment on this profile was a suggestion to someone else to read the guidelines.)
      - KhalilK 12y ago
        Interesting that his only other comment on that profile was also a reply to a comment of mine.
  - yareally 12y ago
    Any of the ones living in pre-islamic Egypt/Babylon/Sumeria/Persia? Unless you don't believe the Egyptians/Babylonians/Sumerians/Persians were scientists and their innovations required no science or mathematics.
    - Mikeb85 12y ago
      They weren't Arabs...
      - yareally 12y ago
        Arab can be a very generic and overly used term in many conversations. Please define who you think are Arabs. Also the link this whole thread is about on wikipedia is about a Scientist from Turkey, not Arabia. > "Badi'al-Zaman Abū al-'Izz ibn Ismā'īl ibn al-Razāz al-Jazarī (1136–1206) (Arabic: بديع الزمان أَبُو اَلْعِزِ بْنُ إسْماعِيلِ بْنُ الرِّزاز الجزري‎) was a Muslim polymath: a scholar, inventor, mechanical engineer, craftsman, artist, and mathematician from Jazirat ibn Umar (current Cizre, Turkey), who lived during the Islamic Golden Age (Middle Ages)."
        nraf 12y ago
        Cizre is in modern-day Turkey very close to the current borders of both Iraq and Syria. A person born at that time and in that region could be from a multitude of different races.
        nayefc 12y ago
        Arab is not really generic. It is an ethnicity. An Arab does to have to be living in Arabia. Cizre at that time, was inhabited by Arabs. Al Jazari was an Arab, living in Cizre (Jazeera Ibn Amr in Arabic). It happens that this city today is a Turkish city.
        yareally 12y ago
        > It is an ethnicity. I'm aware that it is, but many people seem to like to use it for an (incorrect) generalization.
- nraf 12y ago
  This isn't a very fair or accurate statement given that many of the greatest scholars of Islam weren't Arab (a large number were Persian for example). There were multiple centres of scientific endeavor throughout Islamic history including (but not limited to) Baghdad, Damascus, Al-Andalus (i.e. Islamic Spain) and Africa. Much of the Islamic scholarship at the time revolved around gaining a greater understanding of the creation of God as a means to draw nearer to God. In addition a lot of scholars in the major Islamic centres weren't even Muslim. For example, the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula (welcomed by the local Jewish population) ushered in a Jewish Golden Age which produced Maimonides, one of the greatest Jewish scholars of the time.
  - arjn 12y ago
    Maimonides was Jewish.
    - nraf 12y ago
      Sorry, typo. Had meant to write Jewish. That was sorta the point of the sentence. :)
  - nayefc 12y ago
    Right, a Muslim scholar in Persia could be seen as a Persian scholar or a Muslim scholar. However, Arabs often end up looking at their contributions as Islamic Contributions, or rather Arab-Islamic dismissing non-Muslim Arabs. To your point, there were many non-Muslim Arab scholars.
    - nraf 12y ago
      My point isn't that there are many non-Muslim Arab scholars, it's that a lot of the greatest Muslim scholars at the time weren't actually of Arab origin. e.g. Ibn Sina and Al-Ghazali were both of Persian origin (although the lingua franca was Arabic). Islam was the catalyst of change in the 7th century, I don't see how that could be denied. Yes, it was predominately Arabs that brought it outside the Peninsula but the scholarly achievements weren't Arab achievements, because, again, many of the scholars weren't Arabs. Heck, the most important book in Sunni Islam after the Qur'an was compiled by al-Bukhari, a non-Arab from Bukhara in modern-day Afghanistan. If you look into it, Islamic scholarship didn't really kick off until the Abbasid Dynasty was established. Non-Arabs played a large role in allowing the Abbasids to come into power in the first place. The jizya (tax on non-Muslims) was a higher fee than the zakat (religious tax on Muslims). As more and more non-Arabs started to embrace Islam, the Umayyads were getting less and less tax revenue because the new Muslims were playing zakat instead of jizya. As such, they stated (against the laws of Islam) that non-Arab converts to Islam still need to pay the same amount as they were paying before they embraced Islam. Naturally, this led to a lot of resentment amongst the new non-Arab Muslims who would later support the Abbasid rebellion against the Umayyads. The Abbasids would go on to employ many non-Arabs, especially Persians, into high positions in government.
dvdhsu 12y ago
I was reading Why Nations Fail, recently, and came across a similar sentiment: > While the Egyptians were building the great pyramids of Giza around 2500 BC, the English constructed their most famous ancient monument, the stone circle at Stonehenge. Not bad by English standards, but not even large enough to have housed one of the ceremonial boats buried at the foot of King Khufu’s pyramid. England continued to lag behind and to borrow from the Middle East and the rest of Europe up to and including the Roman period. So, the Great Pyramid of Giza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza, versus Stonehenge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge. Now it's completely different. The Middle East (largely), is far behind western civilization. What's happened since then? It's hard to comprehend how quickly nations and cultures can fall, as well how quickly they can rise. The y-intercept generally doesn't matter. The slope does. This reminds me of pg's Black Swan Farming: http://www.paulgraham.com/swan.html http://www.paulgraham.com/swan.html. Black swans (e.g. Gutenburg's printing press) are the driving force for advancement in society. Since black swans beget more black swans (since one black swan in a certain society -> society supporting more of them), the effect is cumulative, and societies can rise and fall quickly. What does that mean today? Will Africa have their own black swans? Will South America?
- GuiA 12y ago
  You can only connect the dots looking backward. How do we know that our society won't be viewed 500 years from now the same way we view the Roman empire or Egyptian kingdom?
  - Solarsail 12y ago
    Would that be a bad thing? Unless you're referring to the current 'golden age' ending, wouldn't it be a good thing if modern day achievements are still that well regarded 5 centuries from now? (I suppose you could say that the current phase of western civilization falling, eventually, would be a bad thing. But isn't it inevitable that any single civilization will end, eventually?)
  - otakucode 12y ago

by KhalilK 12y ago

rikacomet 12y ago

my brother, that is a bit out of context. Don't be sad about it. Success passes on to those, who work hard for the greater cause. One should have rivals, but no enemies ;)

nayefc 12y ago

Once we replace "Islamic contribution" with "Arab contribution", we will move forward.

vdfs 12y ago
That is not true. Can you give me the name of a scientist before Islam?
- tidderton 12y ago
  You know what, it is. Also, Mohammad was a misogynist pedophile warlord. Ideas from medieval ages have no place in the 21st century. (Down-votes from PC folks welcome)
  - quinnchr 12y ago
    I'm pretty sure we still find plenty of use in the ideas much older than that... Do we not still teach the ideas of Pythagoras et al? I'm pretty sure what you're trying to say is religion has no place in the 21st century. Also fun fact, the early days of Islam saw huge steps forward for women's rights, more so than pretty much any other culture at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism#Early_reforms_under_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism#Early_reforms_...). I'm curious why you Mohammed was a misogynist and what that has to do with Islam?
  - zyngaro 12y ago
    What a hateful comment. How can one judge a man who lived in the 7th century by today's standards?! Objectively speaking, a warlord he might have been but a misogynist and a pedophile surely he wasn't.
    - tidderton 12y ago
      Because he is the perfect example to follow for all humans according to Muslims? He definitely was a misogynist and a pedophile according to Islamic texts. Would you like some links?
      - dang 12y ago
        Please stop.
      - nayefc 12y ago
        So was every single religious figure..
      - selimthegrim 12y ago
        I await your similar frenzied expose of Richard the Lionheart with bated breath....
  - lotharbot 12y ago
    "Please don't bait other users by inviting them to downmod you." "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (Interesting that your only other comment on this profile was a suggestion to someone else to read the guidelines.)
    - KhalilK 12y ago
      Interesting that his only other comment on that profile was also a reply to a comment of mine.
- yareally 12y ago
  Any of the ones living in pre-islamic Egypt/Babylon/Sumeria/Persia? Unless you don't believe the Egyptians/Babylonians/Sumerians/Persians were scientists and their innovations required no science or mathematics.
  - Mikeb85 12y ago
    They weren't Arabs...
    - yareally 12y ago
      Arab can be a very generic and overly used term in many conversations. Please define who you think are Arabs. Also the link this whole thread is about on wikipedia is about a Scientist from Turkey, not Arabia. > "Badi'al-Zaman Abū al-'Izz ibn Ismā'īl ibn al-Razāz al-Jazarī (1136–1206) (Arabic: بديع الزمان أَبُو اَلْعِزِ بْنُ إسْماعِيلِ بْنُ الرِّزاز الجزري‎) was a Muslim polymath: a scholar, inventor, mechanical engineer, craftsman, artist, and mathematician from Jazirat ibn Umar (current Cizre, Turkey), who lived during the Islamic Golden Age (Middle Ages)."
      - nraf 12y ago
        Cizre is in modern-day Turkey very close to the current borders of both Iraq and Syria. A person born at that time and in that region could be from a multitude of different races.
      - nayefc 12y ago
        Arab is not really generic. It is an ethnicity. An Arab does to have to be living in Arabia. Cizre at that time, was inhabited by Arabs. Al Jazari was an Arab, living in Cizre (Jazeera Ibn Amr in Arabic). It happens that this city today is a Turkish city.
        yareally 12y ago
        > It is an ethnicity. I'm aware that it is, but many people seem to like to use it for an (incorrect) generalization.
nraf 12y ago
This isn't a very fair or accurate statement given that many of the greatest scholars of Islam weren't Arab (a large number were Persian for example). There were multiple centres of scientific endeavor throughout Islamic history including (but not limited to) Baghdad, Damascus, Al-Andalus (i.e. Islamic Spain) and Africa. Much of the Islamic scholarship at the time revolved around gaining a greater understanding of the creation of God as a means to draw nearer to God. In addition a lot of scholars in the major Islamic centres weren't even Muslim. For example, the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula (welcomed by the local Jewish population) ushered in a Jewish Golden Age which produced Maimonides, one of the greatest Jewish scholars of the time.
- arjn 12y ago
  Maimonides was Jewish.
  - nraf 12y ago
    Sorry, typo. Had meant to write Jewish. That was sorta the point of the sentence. :)
- nayefc 12y ago
  Right, a Muslim scholar in Persia could be seen as a Persian scholar or a Muslim scholar. However, Arabs often end up looking at their contributions as Islamic Contributions, or rather Arab-Islamic dismissing non-Muslim Arabs. To your point, there were many non-Muslim Arab scholars.
  - nraf 12y ago
    My point isn't that there are many non-Muslim Arab scholars, it's that a lot of the greatest Muslim scholars at the time weren't actually of Arab origin. e.g. Ibn Sina and Al-Ghazali were both of Persian origin (although the lingua franca was Arabic). Islam was the catalyst of change in the 7th century, I don't see how that could be denied. Yes, it was predominately Arabs that brought it outside the Peninsula but the scholarly achievements weren't Arab achievements, because, again, many of the scholars weren't Arabs. Heck, the most important book in Sunni Islam after the Qur'an was compiled by al-Bukhari, a non-Arab from Bukhara in modern-day Afghanistan. If you look into it, Islamic scholarship didn't really kick off until the Abbasid Dynasty was established. Non-Arabs played a large role in allowing the Abbasids to come into power in the first place. The jizya (tax on non-Muslims) was a higher fee than the zakat (religious tax on Muslims). As more and more non-Arabs started to embrace Islam, the Umayyads were getting less and less tax revenue because the new Muslims were playing zakat instead of jizya. As such, they stated (against the laws of Islam) that non-Arab converts to Islam still need to pay the same amount as they were paying before they embraced Islam. Naturally, this led to a lot of resentment amongst the new non-Arab Muslims who would later support the Abbasid rebellion against the Umayyads. The Abbasids would go on to employ many non-Arabs, especially Persians, into high positions in government.

dvdhsu 12y ago

I was reading Why Nations Fail, recently, and came across a similar sentiment: > While the Egyptians were building the great pyramids of Giza around 2500 BC, the English constructed their most famous ancient monument, the stone circle at Stonehenge. Not bad by English standards, but not even large enough to have housed one of the ceremonial boats buried at the foot of King Khufu’s pyramid. England continued to lag behind and to borrow from the Middle East and the rest of Europe up to and including the Roman period. So, the Great Pyramid of Giza: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Giza, versus Stonehenge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge. Now it's completely different. The Middle East (largely), is far behind western civilization. What's happened since then? It's hard to comprehend how quickly nations and cultures can fall, as well how quickly they can rise. The y-intercept generally doesn't matter. The slope does. This reminds me of pg's Black Swan Farming: http://www.paulgraham.com/swan.html http://www.paulgraham.com/swan.html. Black swans (e.g. Gutenburg's printing press) are the driving force for advancement in society. Since black swans beget more black swans (since one black swan in a certain society -> society supporting more of them), the effect is cumulative, and societies can rise and fall quickly. What does that mean today? Will Africa have their own black swans? Will South America?

GuiA 12y ago
You can only connect the dots looking backward. How do we know that our society won't be viewed 500 years from now the same way we view the Roman empire or Egyptian kingdom?
- Solarsail 12y ago
  Would that be a bad thing? Unless you're referring to the current 'golden age' ending, wouldn't it be a good thing if modern day achievements are still that well regarded 5 centuries from now? (I suppose you could say that the current phase of western civilization falling, eventually, would be a bad thing. But isn't it inevitable that any single civilization will end, eventually?)
- otakucode 12y ago