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The full complaint against Oracle by the state of Oregon [pdf]

62 points by mountaineer 12y ago

zenogais 12y ago
Fascinating view of yet another high-profile software project failure. Also a demonstration of the consequences of not making getting software development right a priority.
joshAg 12y ago
my favorite bit so far: > He added that “they broke every single best practice that Oracle themselves have defined. It is one of the worst assessments I have performed * * .” The same developer wrote to Oracle, “You are Oracle people, working on an Oracle hardware platform, with Oracle technology products, on an Oracle solution. * * Oracle should be delivering these environments and products as a solution, like they actually understood the products and owned the solution which has not been the case by a long shot.”
- kyllo 12y ago
  Makes sense in theory, problem is the software (Fatwire) was acquired, and the talent was "body shop" quality subcontractors. Oracle's database product is really the only thing they've built themselves and understand, everything else has been purchased.
YokoZar 12y ago
The state is not just suing for breach of contract to recover some money here -- the Attorney General is seeking a permanent ban on Oracle selling anything to the state. "On page 119: (c) A permanent injunction prohibiting Oracle from marketing to or entering into a contract with any public corporation of or agency of the State of Oregon from the date of judgment forward. "
- Mister_Snuggles 12y ago
  Wow. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a "public corporation of or agency of the State of Oregon" that currently uses some piece of Oracle software. I'm sure current contracts wouldn't be affected, but what about when they come up for renewal?
  - jrapdx3 12y ago
    You could well be correct, but in that case it's an opportunity to take a hard look at how adequately the "system" used by that agency is actually working, and possibly make revisions where indicated or necessary. Trust me, I know there are Oregon state agencies that have suboptimal software systems. Even though Oregon is a low population state, it still runs a large number of systems, and among them are others that are bound to be marginal. It's silly to be idealistic, nonetheless it's denying the obvious to miss the chance to "do it right", to develop and apply the rigorous process alluded to in several comments above. A plan for the long haul, integrating and unifying systems, and reducing "reinvention of wheels" where appropriate, and organizing truly knowledgeable oversight of the state's data management would go a long way to prevent recurrence of recent mistakes, have systems that work better, and cost the public less. No one has to tell me it isn't going to happen, Oregon is where I live, and logic doesn't stop me from wishing that it would.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- davidgerard 12y ago
  You know, quite a lot of people running Oracle are dreaming of replacing it with Postgres. (At the day job, we're finally proceeding with this next year. I'm sure there will be many a tale to tell!)
ddingus 12y ago
Man, I'm wondering how Oregon didn't take advantage of it's excellent software culture and have them build this thing. Oh, I know why. Oregon actually had a bill presented in the early '00's to accomplish that kind of thing. I was part of it, and it was all about making sure the State could evaluate Open Source type solutions right alongside proprietary ones. It failed to see a vote, despite broad bi-partisan support, due to some expensive suits lobbying the speaker Minnis. One case in point used then was the Portland Water billing system. That one cost a ton of money, and was released as a failure, costing more money, and in the end, is likely still costing money. For this kind of change, Oregon could very easily have setup a foundation, or working group of some sort, and had this thing built out of many, if not all OSS components. Oregon would own it, and have more control over it, and would be able to exercise a lot more options managing it too. Once that group saw success, they keep the jobs, Oregon saves cash, and they then start knocking out municipal solutions of all kinds, exporting that as needed for funding and or just cash for the public interest. Oracle really screwed the pooch on this one. It's going to be painful for all involved, but I sure wouldn't want that document out there floating around. Enterprise sales will get just a notch tougher real quick.
- joshAg 12y ago
  In the requirements, OR seems pretty adamant that they want a COTS solution with no or very little custom code. I'm sure they could do this project with OSS products and custom code integrating everything, but those don't come with support contracts. If there's no support contract that means OR has to support it itself, which means hiring people with deep knowledge of the system to quite possibly do nothing for long periods of time until a bug is found for their particular use case, because no one else is using the product. That's not cost effective compared to an off the shelf solution from a vendor that can use 1 support staff to help multiple customers, especially when you realize this means requiring at least a security expert, a db expert, and a frontend UI/UX. It's exactly the same reason why tech companies don't write everything themselves from OSS projects. Sure, they do that for certain things that they deem critical, but not for things like salesforce or the direct deposit and accounting software and sometimes not even for stuff as important and tech-ey as a vcs, like perforce. I'll totally agree that OR should keep IT in house for this stuff, but I don't think it's a great idea for a state or business to suddenly get NIH syndrome and want to write custom software themselves for anything their agencies might need. Can you imagine if this had happened because OR did this project in house and had the same results? Or if the whitehouse had said they weren't outsourcing healthcare.gov and released the same PoS that was actually released? It'd be even worse than the current fallout because they aren't subject matter experts. At least OR appeared to try and be competent by having an in-depth sales cycle and outside consultants to vet the proposals.
scresswell 12y ago
A fool and his money are easily parted
revelation 12y ago
Where's the case of the taxpayers of Oregon against the state that due to sheer negligence and ignorance managed to deliver nothing? They did not oversee the work, they allowed Oracle to oversee itself, and they hired outside consultants at every single fucking point along the way to do what was their job.
fasteo 12y ago
I guess it is easier to blame Oracle than to fire the truly incompetent managers of this project.
planetjones 12y ago
A former Oracle employee was more direct saying Oracle’s products were seemingly configured “by a kindergartner.” & An internal assessment estimated that the “Oracle Solution” was 40% custom code Anyone know who the kindergartners were ? I believe Oracle are now in the business of sending their software development to far away sweatshops. I'm pleased that action is being taken here - software now seems to be seen as a commodity by far too many - the craftsmanships is gone and the salesman have taken over.

62 points by mountaineer 12y ago

Fascinating view of yet another high-profile software project failure. Also a demonstration of the consequences of not making getting software development right a priority.

joshAg 12y ago

my favorite bit so far: > He added that “they broke every single best practice that Oracle themselves have defined. It is one of the worst assessments I have performed * * .” The same developer wrote to Oracle, “You are Oracle people, working on an Oracle hardware platform, with Oracle technology products, on an Oracle solution. * * Oracle should be delivering these environments and products as a solution, like they actually understood the products and owned the solution which has not been the case by a long shot.”

kyllo 12y ago
Makes sense in theory, problem is the software (Fatwire) was acquired, and the talent was "body shop" quality subcontractors. Oracle's database product is really the only thing they've built themselves and understand, everything else has been purchased.

YokoZar 12y ago

The state is not just suing for breach of contract to recover some money here -- the Attorney General is seeking a permanent ban on Oracle selling anything to the state. "On page 119: (c) A permanent injunction prohibiting Oracle from marketing to or entering into a contract with any public corporation of or agency of the State of Oregon from the date of judgment forward. "

Mister_Snuggles 12y ago
Wow. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a "public corporation of or agency of the State of Oregon" that currently uses some piece of Oracle software. I'm sure current contracts wouldn't be affected, but what about when they come up for renewal?
- jrapdx3 12y ago
  You could well be correct, but in that case it's an opportunity to take a hard look at how adequately the "system" used by that agency is actually working, and possibly make revisions where indicated or necessary. Trust me, I know there are Oregon state agencies that have suboptimal software systems. Even though Oregon is a low population state, it still runs a large number of systems, and among them are others that are bound to be marginal. It's silly to be idealistic, nonetheless it's denying the obvious to miss the chance to "do it right", to develop and apply the rigorous process alluded to in several comments above. A plan for the long haul, integrating and unifying systems, and reducing "reinvention of wheels" where appropriate, and organizing truly knowledgeable oversight of the state's data management would go a long way to prevent recurrence of recent mistakes, have systems that work better, and cost the public less. No one has to tell me it isn't going to happen, Oregon is where I live, and logic doesn't stop me from wishing that it would.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
davidgerard 12y ago
You know, quite a lot of people running Oracle are dreaming of replacing it with Postgres. (At the day job, we're finally proceeding with this next year. I'm sure there will be many a tale to tell!)

ddingus 12y ago

Man, I'm wondering how Oregon didn't take advantage of it's excellent software culture and have them build this thing. Oh, I know why. Oregon actually had a bill presented in the early '00's to accomplish that kind of thing. I was part of it, and it was all about making sure the State could evaluate Open Source type solutions right alongside proprietary ones. It failed to see a vote, despite broad bi-partisan support, due to some expensive suits lobbying the speaker Minnis. One case in point used then was the Portland Water billing system. That one cost a ton of money, and was released as a failure, costing more money, and in the end, is likely still costing money. For this kind of change, Oregon could very easily have setup a foundation, or working group of some sort, and had this thing built out of many, if not all OSS components. Oregon would own it, and have more control over it, and would be able to exercise a lot more options managing it too. Once that group saw success, they keep the jobs, Oregon saves cash, and they then start knocking out municipal solutions of all kinds, exporting that as needed for funding and or just cash for the public interest. Oracle really screwed the pooch on this one. It's going to be painful for all involved, but I sure wouldn't want that document out there floating around. Enterprise sales will get just a notch tougher real quick.

joshAg 12y ago
In the requirements, OR seems pretty adamant that they want a COTS solution with no or very little custom code. I'm sure they could do this project with OSS products and custom code integrating everything, but those don't come with support contracts. If there's no support contract that means OR has to support it itself, which means hiring people with deep knowledge of the system to quite possibly do nothing for long periods of time until a bug is found for their particular use case, because no one else is using the product. That's not cost effective compared to an off the shelf solution from a vendor that can use 1 support staff to help multiple customers, especially when you realize this means requiring at least a security expert, a db expert, and a frontend UI/UX. It's exactly the same reason why tech companies don't write everything themselves from OSS projects. Sure, they do that for certain things that they deem critical, but not for things like salesforce or the direct deposit and accounting software and sometimes not even for stuff as important and tech-ey as a vcs, like perforce. I'll totally agree that OR should keep IT in house for this stuff, but I don't think it's a great idea for a state or business to suddenly get NIH syndrome and want to write custom software themselves for anything their agencies might need. Can you imagine if this had happened because OR did this project in house and had the same results? Or if the whitehouse had said they weren't outsourcing healthcare.gov and released the same PoS that was actually released? It'd be even worse than the current fallout because they aren't subject matter experts. At least OR appeared to try and be competent by having an in-depth sales cycle and outside consultants to vet the proposals.

scresswell 12y ago

A fool and his money are easily parted

revelation 12y ago

Where's the case of the taxpayers of Oregon against the state that due to sheer negligence and ignorance managed to deliver nothing? They did not oversee the work, they allowed Oracle to oversee itself, and they hired outside consultants at every single fucking point along the way to do what was their job.

fasteo 12y ago

I guess it is easier to blame Oracle than to fire the truly incompetent managers of this project.

planetjones 12y ago

A former Oracle employee was more direct saying Oracle’s products were seemingly configured “by a kindergartner.” & An internal assessment estimated that the “Oracle Solution” was 40% custom code Anyone know who the kindergartners were ? I believe Oracle are now in the business of sending their software development to far away sweatshops. I'm pleased that action is being taken here - software now seems to be seen as a commodity by far too many - the craftsmanships is gone and the salesman have taken over.