4 ms·

I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?

by j2kun 12y ago

nsxwolf 12y ago
Sure, but what games feature that? Must be stuff I'm not playing. GTA5? Sandbox game. If you run over or beat women in that game, you should probably look in the mirror for the problem.
- j2kun 12y ago
  I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story, so the developers had to actively decide that it was a good idea to put that in the game. This is not uncommon, and the videos of Anita Sarkeesian, if nothing else, give long lists of games with these features.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story I don't recall that scene, but I haven't played all the GTA games. But it seems very much connected to the feel that GTA series generally sought to convey of the lead character being immersed i, and struggling to make a way through, a world in which the worst elements of society were omnipresent. Art depicting a world in which misogyny exists is not, ipso facto, misogynistic.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Did you watch the Sarkeesian videos? It would be hard for any of us to make the initial case for AAA gaming misogyny better than she does. Her argument isn't dispositive, but why waste time with an inferior substitute to her own words?
      - xtrumanx 12y ago
        I haven't watched her videos. I tried watching the first one when it came out and got bored. I did however end up watching one the critiques of her videos. If you haven't, I'd say you may doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch some of them before recommending anymore of her videos to others. There was a scene in Hitman which she grossly misrepresented to fit a narrative of misogyny in videogames which I found shocking.
        tptacek 12y ago
        We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. The gross misrepresentation is Sarkeesian's belief that the game encourages players to do that, refuted by the fact that a number at the top left of the screen in fact decreases when you do. That's the disclaimer you want me to accompany my recommendation with?
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. That a work depicts a world in which it is possible to commit violence against women is a pretty weak argument for the work being mysogynistic, especially when that particular example of violence is not one which the game rewards, while the game does center around, and reward, murdering all kinds of other people.
        tptacek 12y ago
        You're litigating a different issue than the grandparent comment is. In the video I watched, Sarkeesian was very clear about the motives she perceived in including this kind of violence in games. She believes that it is in fact an attempt to create atmosphere and realism. She goes on to interrogate whether that attempt is effective given its knock-on effects and subtext. The grandparent commenter, on the other hand, tries to claim that Sarkeesian's videos might be dishonest. I don't buy it, based on the critiques I could find. Did you watch the videos? What do you think?
    - j2kun 12y ago
      The point is not that it's depicting misogyny, but that it does so casually, carelessly, and unrealistically. It's done for cheap dramatic effect without consequence, not to be artistic.
    - potatolicious 12y ago
      This is a common argument, but doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny. To be clear I'm referring to the "misogyny exists in the real world, so displaying misogyny in creative works is merely being realistic/accurate" argument. This is a sound argument if made in a vacuum of no additional information. Unfortunately for gaming this argument falls apart once you consider the sheer mass of portrayals of misogyny in games but the relative lack of portrayal of other social issues. In other words, a trope (and now we delve into the thesis of Sarkeesian's entire series of videos). Her last video was very good and delves into this argument in specific. The gaming industry seems incapable of portraying "gritty" and "bleak" without shoving dead women in your face. Need your protagonist to realize the gravity of a situation? Show violence against women. Need to project an air of despair and injustice? Violence against women. Need to express the true evilness of the bad guy? ... You guessed it. This suggests that portrayals of misogyny in gaming is more than an attempt to be even-handed or realistic. IMO Sarkeesian is correct in stating that portrayals of misogyny is used stereotypically and excessively for dramatic effect, and in doing so is ultimately dampening the very effect they're trying to achieve. When gamers see dead/hurt/maimed women everywhere always they cease to be truly shocking and horrifying, and instead simply become mood-setting decor.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        > To be clear I'm referring to the "misogyny exists in the real world, so displaying misogyny in creative works is merely being realistic/accurate" argument. I didn't make that argument (or one for which that is a valid generalization), and, in fact, didn't make any reference to what exists in the "real world" at all. If you wanted to generalize the argument I made validly, it would be "the depiction in art of items or acts with a particular characteristic -- whether or not those items or acts exist in the real world, with a same or different frequency either on their own or with respect to other elements which are shared between the real world and the artistic depiction -- does not, in and of itself, make the art itself into an act or item with the characteristics of the act or item depicted." > IMO Sarkeesian is correct in stating that portrayals of misogyny is used stereotypically and excessively for dramatic effect, and in doing so is ultimately dampening the very effect they're trying to achieve. Overuse of misogynistic acts as an indicator of badness might be a real problem in games, but if it is, its very much not a problem of games or gamer culture being misogynistic, in the same way that if a particular medium featured wild overuse of "violence by Arabs against Jews" to show badness, it would be a problem, but the problem wouldn't be anti-Semitism in that medium.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
What would you describe as a "needless depiction of violence"? Realistically, the only way for video games to avoid "needless content" is if they're linear, scripted and on-rails experiences. In this case, you would have an interactive film. There's certainly room for such games, and there are already plenty of them. But to focus more on that is to miss the entire point of having video games in the first place.

I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?

by j2kun 12y ago

I think casual and needless depictions of violence against women constitutes more than "just" sexism. Would you agree?

Sure, but what games feature that? Must be stuff I'm not playing. GTA5? Sandbox game. If you run over or beat women in that game, you should probably look in the mirror for the problem.

j2kun 12y ago
I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story, so the developers had to actively decide that it was a good idea to put that in the game. This is not uncommon, and the videos of Anita Sarkeesian, if nothing else, give long lists of games with these features.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > I distinctly remember a scenario in GTA which was not sandbox: two men are beating and raping a woman on the side of the road and you can either stop them or watch. There was no connection between this and the game's story I don't recall that scene, but I haven't played all the GTA games. But it seems very much connected to the feel that GTA series generally sought to convey of the lead character being immersed i, and struggling to make a way through, a world in which the worst elements of society were omnipresent. Art depicting a world in which misogyny exists is not, ipso facto, misogynistic.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Did you watch the Sarkeesian videos? It would be hard for any of us to make the initial case for AAA gaming misogyny better than she does. Her argument isn't dispositive, but why waste time with an inferior substitute to her own words?
    - xtrumanx 12y ago
      I haven't watched her videos. I tried watching the first one when it came out and got bored. I did however end up watching one the critiques of her videos. If you haven't, I'd say you may doing yourself a disservice if you don't watch some of them before recommending anymore of her videos to others. There was a scene in Hitman which she grossly misrepresented to fit a narrative of misogyny in videogames which I found shocking.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. The gross misrepresentation is Sarkeesian's belief that the game encourages players to do that, refuted by the fact that a number at the top left of the screen in fact decreases when you do. That's the disclaimer you want me to accompany my recommendation with?
        dragonwriter 12y ago
        > We're talking about a game in which, all parties stipulate, your playable character can physically assault a stripper. That a work depicts a world in which it is possible to commit violence against women is a pretty weak argument for the work being mysogynistic, especially when that particular example of violence is not one which the game rewards, while the game does center around, and reward, murdering all kinds of other people.
        tptacek 12y ago
        You're litigating a different issue than the grandparent comment is. In the video I watched, Sarkeesian was very clear about the motives she perceived in including this kind of violence in games. She believes that it is in fact an attempt to create atmosphere and realism. She goes on to interrogate whether that attempt is effective given its knock-on effects and subtext. The grandparent commenter, on the other hand, tries to claim that Sarkeesian's videos might be dishonest. I don't buy it, based on the critiques I could find. Did you watch the videos? What do you think?
  - j2kun 12y ago
    The point is not that it's depicting misogyny, but that it does so casually, carelessly, and unrealistically. It's done for cheap dramatic effect without consequence, not to be artistic.
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    This is a common argument, but doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny. To be clear I'm referring to the "misogyny exists in the real world, so displaying misogyny in creative works is merely being realistic/accurate" argument. This is a sound argument if made in a vacuum of no additional information. Unfortunately for gaming this argument falls apart once you consider the sheer mass of portrayals of misogyny in games but the relative lack of portrayal of other social issues. In other words, a trope (and now we delve into the thesis of Sarkeesian's entire series of videos). Her last video was very good and delves into this argument in specific. The gaming industry seems incapable of portraying "gritty" and "bleak" without shoving dead women in your face. Need your protagonist to realize the gravity of a situation? Show violence against women. Need to project an air of despair and injustice? Violence against women. Need to express the true evilness of the bad guy? ... You guessed it. This suggests that portrayals of misogyny in gaming is more than an attempt to be even-handed or realistic. IMO Sarkeesian is correct in stating that portrayals of misogyny is used stereotypically and excessively for dramatic effect, and in doing so is ultimately dampening the very effect they're trying to achieve. When gamers see dead/hurt/maimed women everywhere always they cease to be truly shocking and horrifying, and instead simply become mood-setting decor.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > To be clear I'm referring to the "misogyny exists in the real world, so displaying misogyny in creative works is merely being realistic/accurate" argument. I didn't make that argument (or one for which that is a valid generalization), and, in fact, didn't make any reference to what exists in the "real world" at all. If you wanted to generalize the argument I made validly, it would be "the depiction in art of items or acts with a particular characteristic -- whether or not those items or acts exist in the real world, with a same or different frequency either on their own or with respect to other elements which are shared between the real world and the artistic depiction -- does not, in and of itself, make the art itself into an act or item with the characteristics of the act or item depicted." > IMO Sarkeesian is correct in stating that portrayals of misogyny is used stereotypically and excessively for dramatic effect, and in doing so is ultimately dampening the very effect they're trying to achieve. Overuse of misogynistic acts as an indicator of badness might be a real problem in games, but if it is, its very much not a problem of games or gamer culture being misogynistic, in the same way that if a particular medium featured wild overuse of "violence by Arabs against Jews" to show badness, it would be a problem, but the problem wouldn't be anti-Semitism in that medium.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

What would you describe as a "needless depiction of violence"? Realistically, the only way for video games to avoid "needless content" is if they're linear, scripted and on-rails experiences. In this case, you would have an interactive film. There's certainly room for such games, and there are already plenty of them. But to focus more on that is to miss the entire point of having video games in the first place.